"The Motocross Vault" on YouTube has been deleted owing to complaints issued by Duke Video.
This move limits access to real Motocross and Supercross, while YouTube is jam packed with farty 4 stroke races. I am not interested in 4 stroke races no matter how well hyped they are, so the racing I like to watch is missing now.
Are you saying that you wouldn't expect a 5% gain in horsepower if you increased compression by 11.2%
All I'm saying is that the increase in compression accounts for the increase in horsepower. With that much difference in the compression ratios in favor of the fuel injected example of nearly equal displacement, it doesn't appear that there was much gain, if any, resulting from the fuel injection. It appears to have resulted, in fact, from other differences in design.
The other demonstrative precedent is the fact that 4 Foopties haven't gained any horsepower as a result of fuel pumps, fuel pressure, and the resultant, frequent failures associated therewith...
-1970 Chevy Vega, carbed 2.3L making 90HP. With a compression ratio of 8.0:1 and 2 valves per cylinder
-1990 Chevy Corsica, injected 2.2L making ***120HP???******WRONG ANSWER*** It actually makes only 95 Horsepower - BECAUSE of a substantial compression ratio increase over the aforementioned engine, to 9.0:1 (That's an 11% increase in compression) also 2 valves per cylinder
So... the Vega had 1/22 more displacement and 11% less compression, and it produced 90 Horsepower..... And the Corsica with Fuel Injection, 1/22 lesser displacement, and 11.2% higher compression produced 95 horsepower???
That's really not impressive... After all, any of our bikes could surely produce 5% more horsepower if granted a 11.2% increase in compression.
The carburetor on the typical two stroke motorcycle engine is extremely unlikely to fail, because it does it's complex job with very few moving parts, no stupid fuel pump, and with the fuel and the air both at atmospheric pressure.
Apart from the fuel and air, notable moving parts are the float assembly and valve, the slide with it's attached needle, and the spring between the top of the slide and the cap which returns the slide and needle to the closed position along with, or in the absence of gravity, when the throttle is closed. Those are the full time workers, the choke slide is a part timer who hardly has to do anything.
Because of that robust simplicity, carburetor failures are so unlikely that it's almost like worrying that you won't get to go riding because of a catastrophic number plate failure... In all the time I've had bikes and hung with groups of people who rode, I have never known "Carburetor failure" to stop a ride from taking place or end one suddenly with no way home. Both of those scenarios seem pretty remote, judging from my own experience and that of everyone I know.
But don't take my word for it, do a fun study of your own! - Go to "The Motocross Vault" on YouTube and dig up ALL of the great 2 Stroke motocross and supercross races you can find and watch them all. - You'll be waiting a REALLY long time (Forever) before you're watching a race and you see someone grind to a halt due to "Carburetor Failure". You'll probably be waiting even longer than that before you're watching a 2 Stroke race at the drop of the gate, and one guy's bike just sits there, engine suddenly dead due to "Carburetor Failure", while he kicks and kicks.
To see those kind of funny failures happen with some regularity, you have to fast forward to more recent Foopercross and Mowercross, and the handicapped, crutch bristling barges of today's weak scene. The complicated, stupid fuel injection systems that were supposed to be a bandaid and a shot of caffeine for the lumpy and flawed induction and power curve of the Fooper, fail like balloons in a preschool. I don't even watch modern pro MX and SX that much because of how boring it is, but I've seen Justin Barcia, Ryan Dungey, John Dowd and Vince Friese and many more pro riders each end up stranded on the starting line (Barcia more than once!) because their ultra-dependable Rube Goldberg fuel system crapped out suddenly..... And that was after a whole squad of professional wrenches had hunched over the junk for hours and days preparing! Where would that leave someone who doesn't have a squad of professional wrenches?
Oh... I can't WAIT for that trouble-free fuel injection!
His bike wasn't going anywhere.... And speaking of bikes that don't seem to be going anywhere...
I'm not trying to muckrake, but there's a lot of BS that people spew about all the problems "You're going to have", with a carbureted bike and they are almost always fairytales or miss labeled, unrelated problems. Then you get the same people singing hymns about fuel injection and making false comparisons that use Foopers or some "SS A.A.R.P." center console fishing boat engine as examples.
When Foopers with fuel injection were first introduced, the hype was "You'll never have to worry about anything fuel mixture related ever again, because the system with adjust to anything"
BUT, then that turned out not to be true, because the bikes needed to be adjusted to deal with heavy load conditions like deep sand and some other things like that, usually to richen the mixture and keep the operating temps from spiking so high that the pieces of crap would eat themselves alive .... SO they started including alternate couplers and other poo, so that those Fuel Injected Foopertroopers could "Re Jet" their bikes for those special conditions. ...So as it turned out, they still have to tune and "Jet" their Foopers occasionally, and they get a reduction in reliability and serviceability, an increase in weight, and an increase in cost in the not-a-bargain to go along with it.
And the hype that 4 stroke trolls like to harp on about how you CONSTANTLY have to keep trying to jet your 2 stroke.... Well, that's a load a manure too.
On a 2 stroke streetbike, do you really think you'd have to start by jetting your bike in Seaside Heights, then stop in Easton, PA and re jet because you gained some elevation, then stop again in Hazleton, PA to re-jet again??? No, you wouldn't... You'd be too busy just riding along and enjoying yourself.
Personally, ever since Fonda went all 4 stroke I don't care about them at all. I do enjoy watching them fail though, that's my favorite!
I'm hoping to see them still stuck with like 8 CRF Onefarties at Hanover Power Sports this weekend. Seeing those 2008 models still sitting there makes me laugh harder every time.
Nothing's more fun than a 100% fooper company falling on it's face!
If like me, you're in the habit of looking at this forum first for news and fresh activity with regard to TwoStrokeMotocross.com, then things could be perceived to have slowed down. BUT, we have to keep in mind that TwoStrokeMotocross.com's web traffic and "Real time" web activity are more spread out now, with much happening on Facebook and Twitter and things like that.
There's TONS of activity in the TwoStrokeMotocross.com family of sites and pages, but there are now MORE sites and pages. Because of that, the stream of new posts and interactions in any one place is bound to slow a bit.
In the past, we used this board as our main "Real Time" exchange, and looked at the main page for the articles. Then we'd usually discuss those articles from the main page here, so traffic was very deep. Now we've decentralized that stream a bit, because we also interact on a real time basis through some of TSM's other channels.
It's not necessarily a bad thing, the Facebook and Twitter stuff is probably good for the site demographically. But at the same time, we have to expect it to weaken the pulse of this forum a little bit.
Yeah, that's true. And DEFINITELY at the pro level, where the people have the talent to ride a 2 stroke and make the most of all it's advantages. That's probably the reason why as long as there were two strokes in the pro races, they either won or very nearly won.
At the amateur levels, many of the riders are less skilled, so the Foo-Fifty four stroke fooper with it's boring, uneventful power and sleightly mushy acceleration caters to their needs perfectly. They don't have to worry about the intimidating suddeness and immediacy of the 2 stoke power, and they can poo around all day.
A four stroke does help the least skilled riders to poop successfully over some bumps where they might otherwise drop it, due to their lack of ability. The fumpers have definitely provided a learning platform for the lesser riders, and for wives and girlfriends who want to be able to just putt around without the bike constantly urging them forward into territory they might not be able to handle.
The four stroke's flat, boring power characteristics do have their place and they pair well with the girthsome and sluggish handling to produce a less intimidating package for beginners.
But people don't really care about that so that's why so many of them are piling up unsold at dealerships everywhere.
The lack of enthusiasm for the foopers in general might have something to do with people being smarter than the industry thought they'd be. Even though all the factories forced their "Visible Personalities" to switch off the real bikes and onto the foopers, people realize that the pro's will ride anything for a paycheck, and even say nice things about it for the money...
But, the fact that the two strokes dominated until the paychecks forced the last people off them reveals the reason why they had to be eliminated from pro racing completely by the industry via the paychecks.
They couldn't make the foopers look very good while they got gored by motorcycles half their size all the time.
Reading is fundamental. I never said anyting about a 250 two stroke feeling heavier...
You can see in the video how much slower the Foo-Fifty Four Turds are.... I mean they fall behind very quickly, but that's probably not the kind of quickness they paid for.... oops...
Seriously though, I'm a big four stroke fan... I like the way you don't even have to run the pieces through the parts washer before you take them into the dump for cash... They don't penalize you for that. They still give you the going scrap rate for any four stroke. I only beat them into pieces before taking them to the dump for cash so that i can separate out the more valuable metals like the copper, and trade them seperately for a higher rate, plus it's easier to seareate out the plastic parts that way as a coutesy.
Seriously though, four strokes don't sell very well but they RULE at the dump when you want to get cash for scrap metal.
Of first let me say that 250Fs are faster than 125s. Period. No debates, no discussions, faster. The KX250F makes about 40 at Peak. Below and above it still leads most other 250Fs. A 125 makes what? 34 if you're lucky, I think the '12 SX125 was a little over 34.
Since the 250f FOOPER is SO MUCH HEAVIER than a 125 - about 35 Farty Lbs. heavier - they NEED that extra peak horsepower just to have a chance... Kind of like how if you watch Fat People on a leg press machine, they can leg press a little more than skinny people... but they can't win a race up the stairs!
I love Nate Page's video. This kid get's passed by two other guys on 2 strokes, while all the foopers, even dual injected foopers, fall way, far behind.... so far in fact, that you can hardly hear their forlorn farty sound until they're being lapped... Broome is a Scary track with huge uphills, so it's easy to understand how the 4 stroke riders on their farty bikes were having a hard time up all the hills.
It doesn't help at all to have about 1/6th more peak power when you also weigh 1/6th more, and furthermore, you need that power because of being such a fatass, or you'd be completely pathetic!
That's probably why a lot of the fast kids at Broome Tioga have started to call 250 fourstonks "Foo-Fifties!
I rode my YZ250 for the first time in a couple of months today. I leaned it over in a corner and just about fell flat, it was much heavier than the 125 and thats two stroke v two stroke and only about 10-20 pounds heavier. 250Fs feel like a buffalo that just spent the last 20 minutes with a taser on its wang in the corners, so I can't imagine how a 450 would feel.
A YZ250 is really light feeling and flickable. There's not really much difference in feel between it and the 125 except that you have so much more power on tap. A Foo-Fifty feels like Miss Piggy after a trip to Krispy Kreme on someone else's debit card in the corners, so I can't imagine what a FourFoopty must feel like even if there was a 4 stroke troll on board, pretending to be into two strokes on a twostroke board, while always trying to hype Foopers.
Steve Lamson showed what a 125 can do when he whipped everybody at the MXdN... But most people aren't that capable or lack the will to shred on a 125. Your example is a great one ST.
Yeah thx NDG. Most passes are made coming into corners, through the corner and exiting corners. Practice in sand or loam, it,s soft if ya hit the ground pushing your skill limit. You should be on the gas,when the 4-st. are off the gas, hard on the brakes with the bike uprite, then dive inside or outside to inside, take the 4-st line on the exit. Depending on the corner, there,s many more options. The gforces in some corners-warning is addicting . When young riders with there dad,s sit and watch you rail corners, you now know your on the right track. And soon with more commitment, you,ll become an elite 125 specialist.
Agreed.
To the bloke who was having trouble on his RM125 and loved his brothers RMZ250, give your 125 time. At first the hardest part of a 125 for me was multitasking between clutching and the corner itself. After a certain point the corner will become second nature and after a later point both will be a second nature. Its at that point you can focus on going faster and faster until you're tearing your brother a new one on the track.
This is a good point! There are definitely people and places that are suited to 4 stonks. As far as people go, some are 4 stonkers right from the beginning. When most of us started riding, there were probably some people at the local riding areas we looked up to becasue they were the fastest... They were the "Badass" guys who raced, won, and had the fastest, baddest bikes. CRs, KXs, YZs. Fast intimidating bikes, too much for a beginner... Bringing up the other end of the spectrum, every neighborhood usually has one kid who couldn't really ever ride BMX, wasn't ever allowed on a skateboard, etc... That kid would always have a 4 stroke if he rode dirtbikes at all, because it's a perfect fit. The smooth, unintimidating power is just right to putt around on. The bike never feels like it's "In a hurry" the way a 2 stroke does with it's impatient charge through each gear, so it won't get out of control with a more timid rider on board. You can relax on a Fooper and just putt around. The bike will not urge you on constantly the way a 2 stroke will, always feeling like it wants to charge and run wide open. True, this makes the 4 stonk feel dead and bloated by comparison, but if that's what you want or need so that you won't be intimidated, hey that's fine with Big Gay Al...
As far as Places that are more suited to a four stonk, there's the recycling center where you can bring scrap metal and they weigh it in and give you cash. Becasue the 4 stonks are about 1/6th heavier than the 2 strokes that are allowed to compete against them, they will get you more money if you want to just hammer them apart with a sledge hammer and take'em to the dump. Plus, becasue they break down in a catastrophic manner, and much more often, the opportunity to hammer them apart with a sledge hammer and take them to the dump comes sooner and/or much more frequently. You get way more chances to take your bike to the Dump and get some cash with a four stonk than you do with a pesky 2 stoke that just keeps starting and running without problems for Years...
In any case, it's no surprise to see that bullshit log of an article in "Fooper X" because after all, it's a Davey Coombs magazine. If you remember, he's the tool who tried to promote and hype up the pathetic "CRF150 Cup" series that was run at "Selected" rounds of Pro MX during 2010.
In that lame-assed series, people who had paid to see the races got to watch 2 full-length practice sessions and like 2 20 minute motos, during which the 4 or 5 bikes who showed up would putt around lethargically in true 4 stroke fashion... All while a special announcer whom Fonda had hired to be the "Hype Man" on the mic during the crappola would go on and on about "The future of MX!" and "Cooper Webb!"....
It was really stupid, and boring. MX Sports came off looking like total mooks - shuffling up to the counter and letting Fonda put that turd in their collective cap.... Haha! Just another sore orafice for another bunch of MX Creatins... They got what they deserved bending over for Fonda and their money load!
I remember reading, right here in this forum just a couple years ago, that somekind of series or race class for the CRF150 had been dropped from motocross in Europe because no one as entering.... It was dropped due to a "Lack of interest".
I love how they, and all the magazines in fact, are obligated by their corporate sponsors to tell us that "The bike you can create this way still falls far short of a redhotrocketsuperjetthappyexcitingandneverfartydespitealltheevidence 250f-artbike, but downhill or with a tailwind it's OK we guess..."
Even in a magazine that will actually do a "Cool, Cheap used 2 Stroke" article, you can't break free of the rhetoric of the exhalted corporate sponsor, and it's butt-stinking fooper.
They'll do the 2 stroke article, but not without kissing some fooper ass in there as well. Jimmy Lewis broke with the formula for a little while at the end of his term as Editor... and low and behold all of a sudden he wasn't Editor anymore!
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. When young riders with there dad,s sit and watch you rail corners, you now know your on the right track. And soon with more commitment, you,ll become an elite 125 specialist.