Author Topic: KTM 2 stroke fuel injection  (Read 23286 times)

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Online rlaj1004

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KTM 2 stroke fuel injection
« on: March 31, 2013, 06:25:20 AM »
So I was digging through some old stuff on the internet, helping my son with his 2012 250SX and I came across this note in the bike tests in MXA
KTM has a fuel-injected two-stroke engine in the works, but surprisingly they claim that they will release it as an offroad model before putting it on the motocross models. Because of environmental regulations, the enduro line must run cleaner than closed-course motocross machines, which is why KTM fuel-injected the 2012 450EXC, but not the 450SXF
Its seems that KTM will lead the pack on fuel injected 2S, would be cool.
Here is the link:
http://motocrossactionmag.com/mobile/News/MXAS-2012-KTM-250SX-TWOSTROKE-MOTOCROSS-TEST-THIS-8221.aspx
09 KTM250SX. 02 CR125R, 00 YZ250, 02 YZ125, 03 YZ 85 and a Harley :-)
It takes, as Roger DeCoster noted, more talent to ride a two-stroke

Offline Jeram

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Re: KTM 2 stroke fuel injection
« Reply #1 on: March 31, 2013, 07:37:11 PM »
Theyve been saying that for years and years and year.

First it was a KTM, then it was a berg, then the husky was going to have the DFI, then KTM and the berg again.

I've been hearing this crap since 2008!


KTM isnt waiting for anything at all they are playing a game.

They dont want to be the first to bring it out, they want to be the second because thats where the profit is for inovative items.

1. The first company to release has to pay big dollars for advertising and PR to convert the Carbie die hards to EFI/DFI

2. The first company suffers poor sales in the first year while the bike is an odd ball

3. Faults are undoubtedly found in the first model which need fixing



where on the other hand.

1. KTM sits back and watches what unfolds and benefits from the Advertising by the first company as they try to convert the new inovation from an oddball innovation to mainstream technology.

2. KTM then introduces their product in year 2 once the product is mainstream

3. KTM learns from the first companies mistakes and ensures that they dont happen in their model

4. But most importantly KTM can decide whether the whole thing is worth investing in based on customer addopting the first brands bikes in year 1. (is it really worth it?)

Offline bearorso

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Re: KTM 2 stroke fuel injection
« Reply #2 on: April 01, 2013, 07:52:01 PM »
They Have To go to DFI - or some other tech    - that will pass the pending legislation that will require much cleaner 2ts to pass for usage on public roads.

KTM have said it all along - it, whatever It is , will appear went it has to appear.

Meanwhile, They'll just milk in the profits from their biggest profit generators - the 2, 2t engine modules they have. They are probably still more profitable than the Bajaj, Indian made 125 and 200cc 4ts. Though, once Bajaj hit the boosters on them (well, Pulsars included - I'd say the 'boosters' have long been lit), it's game over. Until they make the 2t engines in India!  :D

Offline Jeram

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Re: KTM 2 stroke fuel injection
« Reply #3 on: April 02, 2013, 04:46:53 AM »
exactly which legislation is it?

back 4 years ago it was euro 4 which came and went, then euro 5 is being rolled out and still no change.

I read over the euro emmissions targets and didnt see anything that really applied that would make a two stroke offroad vehicle require DFI.

If you can find which euro emmissions target will cause two strokes to start running EFI/DFI then let me know because I would be interested to see if someone else can pinpoint an exact time point where 2Ts will HAVE to run clean.

Offline maicoman009

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Re: KTM 2 stroke fuel injection
« Reply #4 on: April 02, 2013, 06:34:17 AM »
Theyve been saying that for years and years and year.

First it was a KTM, then it was a berg, then the husky was going to have the DFI, then KTM and the berg again.

I've been hearing this crap since 2008!


KTM isnt waiting for anything at all they are playing a game.

They dont want to be the first to bring it out, they want to be the second because thats where the profit is for inovative items.

1. The first company to release has to pay big dollars for advertising and PR to convert the Carbie die hards to EFI/DFI

2. The first company suffers poor sales in the first year while the bike is an odd ball

3. Faults are undoubtedly found in the first model which need fixing



where on the other hand.

1. KTM sits back and watches what unfolds and benefits from the Advertising by the first company as they try to convert the new inovation from an oddball innovation to mainstream technology.

2. KTM then introduces their product in year 2 once the product is mainstream

3. KTM learns from the first companies mistakes and ensures that they dont happen in their model

4. But most importantly KTM can decide whether the whole thing is worth investing in based on customer addopting the first brands bikes in year 1. (is it really worth it?)
You're dead on Jeram.I know how KTM operates as a company & they will as you've quoted be the 2nd brand to put DI on their off-road model 2-strokes.KTM will sit back & wait to see the 1st company do it & then either learn from their mistakes or if it's successful do their best to copy off of it.

Offline Stusmoke

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Re: KTM 2 stroke fuel injection
« Reply #5 on: April 02, 2013, 06:39:45 AM »
Theyve been saying that for years and years and year.

First it was a KTM, then it was a berg, then the husky was going to have the DFI, then KTM and the berg again.

I've been hearing this crap since 2008!


KTM isnt waiting for anything at all they are playing a game.

They dont want to be the first to bring it out, they want to be the second because thats where the profit is for inovative items.

1. The first company to release has to pay big dollars for advertising and PR to convert the Carbie die hards to EFI/DFI

2. The first company suffers poor sales in the first year while the bike is an odd ball

3. Faults are undoubtedly found in the first model which need fixing



where on the other hand.

1. KTM sits back and watches what unfolds and benefits from the Advertising by the first company as they try to convert the new inovation from an oddball innovation to mainstream technology.

2. KTM then introduces their product in year 2 once the product is mainstream

3. KTM learns from the first companies mistakes and ensures that they dont happen in their model

4. But most importantly KTM can decide whether the whole thing is worth investing in based on customer addopting the first brands bikes in year 1. (is it really worth it?)
You're dead on Jeram.I know how KTM operates as a company & they will as you've quoted be the 2nd brand to put DI on their off-road model 2-strokes.KTM will sit back & wait to see the 1st company do it & then either learn from their mistakes or if it's successful do their best to copy off of it.

x2. Its called business.
See you in Hell or Motocross Des Nations, whichever I get to first.

2013 KTM 250SX

2001 Honda CR125

Offline Jeram

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Re: KTM 2 stroke fuel injection
« Reply #6 on: April 02, 2013, 07:19:06 AM »
smart buisness ;)

they even did it for something as simple as reverse cylinder 450F's.
I cant remember who mentioned that on here a few weeks/months back, maybe it was Bearoso?


I wish I could just go to BRP and ask them to cut their 800 DFI twin in half and sell it to me, even with the CVT (in a lighter more compact form due to half the hp).

Id take an 80hp CVT 400cc single any day of the week.

Offline bearorso

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Re: KTM 2 stroke fuel injection
« Reply #7 on: April 02, 2013, 05:21:44 PM »
exactly which legislation is it?

back 4 years ago it was euro 4 which came and went, then euro 5 is being rolled out and still no change.

I read over the euro emmissions targets and didnt see anything that really applied that would make a two stroke offroad vehicle require DFI.

If you can find which euro emmissions target will cause two strokes to start running EFI/DFI then let me know because I would be interested to see if someone else can pinpoint an exact time point where 2Ts will HAVE to run clean.

I don't know exactly - I'm no member of the European Parliament nor part of KTMs emissions / legislation / rules matching development team. Apparently, the 'goal posts' keep moving, but they are very close to being brought in force.

Firstly, Euro 3 was the most prominent one  that effected 2ts - that's where you saw some 2t bikes in Europe coming with differrent pipes with catalysers in them, or, for example catalysers in the header pipe - I got caught out prepping a EXC125 and 200 here that had those in the pipe - Euro market bikes, diverted to OZ.

Euro 5 was reputed, initially to be mostly pertaining to Diesels, from my recollection. Then , various articles began to bring it into discussion with 2 strokes - particulate matter, high petro - chemical emissions are very much part of 2ts problems.

Sit back and be ignorant all you want people, legislation, that will force 2T Clean Tech(s) - do read that, please - are imminent. It will be on Road Going bikes. The European EXCs - for most owners in Europe, and here in OZ and Many countries, Road Registration Is a requirement.

So, some clean tech, be it EFI, DFI, things like Smart Carbs, some with trapping valves, AST, FAST and many other  techs to clean them up, are comming.

   The MXers /Off Roaders that don't require it, almost certainly won't have it - KTM have said this themselves, a few times. Go in search of what KTM have said. Either it was last year, or the year befores model introduction conference at Munich Airport that one of the heads of KTM spoke about these points - it's all on video, that you can find and watch.

But, you never know, it may work so well / they (  companies  - not just KTM) may want to ammortize the costs quicker, by much higher levels of production. Companies, especially KTM, have had a long time to develop their various Techs. And / or Other companies new 2ts / 2t Techs will force there hand, that whatever KTM have, will be fitted to more than just Road going 2ts.

If you think that Forced by Legislation clean tech is a long way away, you've your head in the sand, people.

KTM /Others, have just been milking the high profits from their *barely changed in decades 2ts*, for as long as they can. It's the way to do business. And I've written that, many times. It might pay you to read, And comprehend, what is written.

If they - KTM or any other company - Don't produce bikes that  work well, whilst meeting the emissions levels that are required, they won't get sales. I guess they could sit back, and Not produce Road Legal 2ts for a few years, whilst others did, and "learn", but they'd be conceding a major part of the 2t market to other companies  .

This is All About Legislation Pertaining To Road Legal 2 Strokes. I emphasise that, to help with peoples comprehension of what I am addressing in this discussion.

Reverse Cylinder 450s?

What are you on about , Jeram?

Reverse Cylinder 2ts, like the Ossa - certainly I've referred to that. And TZs /TZRs. And , probably the 'Tularis / Tul-Aris' - you know, Jeram, the reverse cylinder, Polaris based 2t twin Road Racer done by Dr Robin Tuluie? Though, it's old, and just has carbs at the front :

.

There are a lot of articles about Tuluies' bike you can find on the web, if any are interested.

Then of course, my recent suggestion of getting a Quaife (sp?) , or other gearbox, to hook up to that other 2t twin shown  - though, that was not a reverse cylinder 2t, to my recollection - could be wrong on that, though.

A 400cc 2t, will probably be the near perfect modern Dirt Bike engine. Small, light, with plenty of torque and power, whilst being under little 'strain' producing that torque and HP. F*** the CV Transmission idea, though. Mind you, Honda's "dog leg" system, is bloody amazing. That's a "Auto / CV" trans I'd like to try.

Offline Jeram

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Re: KTM 2 stroke fuel injection
« Reply #8 on: April 02, 2013, 06:24:54 PM »
If you bothered to look you'd find that for light vehicles Euro 5 which is in force currently is exactly the same as euro-6 which comes out in September 2014.

CO   THC   NMHC   NOx   HC+NOx   PM   P***

All those 6 parameters do not change when euro 6 is rolled out next year for both light petrol and diesel motors.

So tell me what legislation exists which will force KTM to run clean tech motors?

I have not yet once found anyone who had an answer, yet these euro emmissions targets are available for all to see on the internet with defined, set-in-stone role out dates
 

Offline evo550

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Re: KTM 2 stroke fuel injection
« Reply #9 on: April 02, 2013, 06:59:57 PM »
How does the "injection" technology change the emissions the bike puts out that much?
The fuel remains the same, it still gets compressed and ignited the same therefore logic would say the by product would be the same. Injection is just a more effective way of getting the fuel from the tank to the combustion chamber.

Offline Jeram

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Re: KTM 2 stroke fuel injection
« Reply #10 on: April 02, 2013, 07:16:53 PM »
if you inject in a way that less unburnt fuel excapes out the exhaust pipe then you save alot in terms of emissions.

This can either be in the form of

a) inject into the transfer ports late in the cylinder filling so that the first part of the fresh charge which escapes out the exhaust does not contain fuel.

b) inject directly into the cylinder after the exhaust port closes.




I dont mean to sound like I dont want injected 2Ts, Id love to have a DI two stroke to ride on the road EVERY DAY.
But i've done the research long before this topic was created and cannot find a single part of the Euro regulations which will require two strokes to become cleaner.
Im sure eventually this will occur, perhaps in euro-7 which has yet to be formalized and likely wouldn't be in place for 5 years.
But I cannot find anything which differs from Euro-5 to Euro-6 for light vehicles. So by deduction if a KTM two stroke passes Euro-5 it will automatically pass Euro-6.

Please if you can find information to the contrary please do share, but as far as I can tell Euro-6 (2014) is centered around reducing the emissions of bulk transport.

Offline VintageBlueSmoke

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Re: KTM 2 stroke fuel injection
« Reply #11 on: April 02, 2013, 11:03:36 PM »
Theyve been saying that for years and years and year.

First it was a KTM, then it was a berg, then the husky was going to have the DFI, then KTM and the berg again.


And since KTM, Berg and husky are now owned by the same people...who will be first? Ossa/Gas-Gas? Can-Am (please, please, please make us an MX-7!), The big (dwindling) 4? Or might it come from a street bike company?

14 Oset 20.0, 08 KTM SX144, 03 Gas-Gas EC300, 97 Honda CR125R(144 shhh), 96 Beta Techno 250, 88 Husky 400WR, 86 Honda CR125R, 80 Can-Am MX6 400, 75 Husky 360CR, 75 Husky 175CC, 73 Penton Jackpiner 175, 73 Ossa SDR, 73 Husky 250CR, 72 Rickman-Zundapp 125, 72 Husky 125WR, (2) 71 Bultaco Pursang Mk4 25

Offline citabjockey

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Re: KTM 2 stroke fuel injection
« Reply #12 on: April 03, 2013, 12:17:09 AM »
Would be nice if this comes to pass one way or another before I am too decrepit to even swing my leg over my brand spanking new DI two stroke. I bought the whole "KTM waiting for Euro regs to require it" hook line and sinker thinking this would be on the horizon. I guess that was all "smoke" and mirrors.

I really hope the xfer port DFI YZ works out, does well and manufacturer folks take notice.

In the meantime I will take my PWK sporting, rules violating, two stroke  KTM 250 for another spin - while I can swing a leg over it. C'mon guys! Step up!

Im sure eventually this will occur, perhaps in euro-7 which has yet to be formalized and likely wouldn't be in place for 5 years.
Yamaha DT1, CT3, RT3, MX125, IT200S (2), KTM380SX, KTM250EXC (Plated), Toy Prius, Diesel F250 (it all balances out)

Offline 2T Institute

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Re: KTM 2 stroke fuel injection
« Reply #13 on: April 03, 2013, 01:51:35 PM »
Keep dreaming because you aint ever going to see a direct injection two stroke dirt bike, for a host of technical and cost reasons.
EuroX emissions targets are NOT based on the individual models but are calculated across the entire model range, the idea being manufacturers can still have thirsty sport/competition models that don't meet the targets but the everyday commuter vehicles are well under the target so on average it balances out.
So there is not a single reason manufacturers would spend a gazzillion Euros to make a model compliant when they can make an existing compliant model further under the target

Offline evo550

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Re: KTM 2 stroke fuel injection
« Reply #14 on: April 03, 2013, 03:00:15 PM »
Yeah, I gotta agree, Comparatively speaking the amount of damaging gasses a 2t motorcycle puts out are a fart in space to other things on this planet.
Injecting a 2t dirt bike defeats half the purpose of why we ride them in the first place, simplicity, reliability and price. lets leave them the way the are, carbs give a bike character :)