Two Stroke IS Motocross

The sport of Motocross is suffering, the fans are diminishing. Why? Four Strokes.

I’m sure many people will disagree with what I have to say, but most know where I am coming from.

Two Strokes are the heart and soul of Motocross, and EVERYONE that enjoys this sport should agree. Remember when going to races was actually fun? Last week’s SuperCross in Phoenix was lacking entertainment value to say the least. No racing happened, just a bunch of money hungry rider’s trying to get paid. Motocross is evolving into 2 wheeled NASCAR, don’t get me wrong I like almost any sort of racing. As long as it’s fun to watch. Four Strokes are boring to ride, boring to watch. How can MX be boring?? With a gate full of Two Strokes, racing happens. No way around it. It takes skill, determination, and a lot of heart.

The four strokes were designed for one thing, profit. Before the high rpm four strokes, the average rider could spend $150 and replace his top end. Or even spend a few hundred more for a complete engine rebuild. Now dealers are pushing these high-reving time bombs, and most consumers don’t know the actual cost of a rebuild until it’s too late. Dealers are making more money from repairs, than actual sales.
Very sad, we agree.

I am a HUGE fan of MotoCross, but I have pretty much lost interest in Pro Racing. TSM will do whatever we can to support our fans, the ones that know where MX came from. I’m not trying to get in a 2vs4 debate, we all know where it leads. I’m just expressing my opinions. I get e-mails from readers everyday, saying they just got back on a Two Stroke after being on a Four for a few years. What do they all say? “I forgot how much fun riding was!”, and my favorite “It’s so nice to not have to worry about the motor failing in mid-air.”
Four Strokes WILL kill the sport. Tracks are closing from noise, fans are getting tired of watching MowerCross, people can’t afford to fix thier bikes when they explode..

TSM’s plan is to focus on raising awareness, and giving fans a place to race the best bikes in the world. More and more Two Stroke events will be taking place over the next few years. For those that remember racing. The sound, the smell, the excitement! Check your local tracks for events and show your support!

One last note. Traction Control possibilites… That will make Pro MX even more exciting to watch… No Roost? No Skill? No Talent? Yeah. Let the good times roll!

Chad Reed’s thought on TC:

"Just got educated on this whole TC dealio:) let's just say there is endless possibilities. the AMA should just legalize it right now IMO..."

And we all heard Stewarts reply when asked about it..

"Uhh... Uhh..."

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169 thoughts on “Two Stroke IS Motocross

  1. Completely correct. What fun is riding when everyone has to plug their ears and watch people on boring bikes all take the same line on a track to get money? No fun. Everything is more fun on a two stroke, from trail riding (my opinion), to hill climbing, desert, track, and almost anything else you can think of. Two strokes for life!

  2. i agree’, the 4 strokes are ruining the sport. I tried to watch the first supercross, (boring) they don”t even slam berms any more. they just don”t bring thje excitement any more. thanks Stewart

  3. Four stroke supercross is almost not even worth watching. at the end of the straight sections the riders may as well just get off their bikes, turn them around, and then go straight again. Where’s the corner speed? The roost? The racing??????

  4. To me wait I for the outdoor season to start watching pro motocross it’s far and away more engaging than SX. 4stroke Supercross is not what I want to see and i’m sure it’s not what millions of other fans want to see either. I would love to see 2 Stoke SX and MX again at the pro level.Problem is we more than likely won’t until it’s too late for the sport. As long as the AMA upholds its 4 stroke rule and lets factory teams dictate who can race what bike things will not change. Sad but true. Maybe if all of us 2 Stroke riders took a stand together on this the powers that be might have to take a look. IMHO

  5. Riders across America are starting to realize that they were snookered into buying a new 4st. The days of the reliable XR,DR,KLX 4strokes are gone and the days of Japanese 2strokes are almost gone as well. Thank the Moto Gods that Europe hasn’t fallen prey to the BS the Jap factories and the AMA has forced us to believe. Husquavarna, KTM, TM, Gas Gas, Husaberg, Maico, all produce several models of 2 stroke MX, XC, and enduro bikes, Even ATK, an American motorcycle company, has two seriously large displacement 2 strokes. The magazines admit that 2 strokes are the more economical choice for the average rider, and that the vibe at most racing events is really tense due to the current anxiety racers have about thier 4 stroke bikes failing. And this is ruining the sport.

  6. I agree with Greg when he says “Maybe if all of us 2 Stroke riders took a stand together on this the powers that be might have to take a look”.I believe that’s what we really need to do! For instance STOP going to watch the boring hogs race,STOP watching them race on television & send the AMA countless letters telling them that we are SICK & TIRED of watching those extremely boring 4-chokes ride around the track!IMO the racers themselves have gotten lazy with racing & they want everything to be sooo easy 4 them nowadays,like reckluse clutches,rumors of traction control,tracks tailored to the 4-stroke bikes,etc.We need to get Motocross & Supercross back to the way it used to be when there was real hard core racing & the racers actually had to RACE the bikes and not just pull the holeshot & cruise around the track in 1 or 2 gears & no clutch work!

  7. I had lengthy e-mail conversations with an AMA gentlemen recently, he believes we are not going to get what we want without changes in the AMA at the committee level. The rule change to allow same size bikes ( 2 strokes and 4 strokes ) in the amateur and local level was, in his opinion “all that will take place, unless the elected officials are changed.” We need to be more organized as a group and make these kind of changes from a grass roots level. He said, “the letters and calls they get, are not going to make it happen.” We need to organize and get results with votes and people in place. Yes, we’d be fighting the big 4’s money, but isn’t it worth it, to either win or go down fighting?

  8. Bring back the TWO Strokes to all the Riders, save our Sport and leave the earplugs at home.
    Stop the noise of the Four Strokes, save the TWO STROKES, enjoy riding and bring back the racing in the stadiums!

  9. I hate the 4 strokers, I am not going to buy another product of any kind that honda makes. ama should have a 250cc class where you can run a two or four stroke, and an open class. any kid under 18 should have to run in a 125cc class and it should be for two or four stroke. they have it where you need lots of money to race.
    we need to clean house in the ama. the sooner the better.

  10. bernard grose
    You are getting the Ossa 280i? I am jealous. I had a Montest Cota 315R a few years back and it was fun. That Ossa looks so sick. Rearward cylinder, rear exhaust, fuel injection! I wish I could get one.

  11. I wish there was a 125, 250, and Open class. Equal displacement in the 125 and 250 classes. Unfortunately it isn’t going to happen in the AMA. At least not until the Big 4 go bankrupt and leave the sport.

  12. For those of us that had the great fortune of being born in the 50s & 60s were able to do all of our racing/riding in the 70s & 80s where you could easiely campain in two different classes 125-250/250-500 whatever turned you on and it never broke the bank. Today I could NOT even race one bike with the schedules we had back then because you had so many choices Saddleback, Escape country, Indian Dunes, etc., etc. I you were to race just one of these single cylinder F1s two days a week you would become bankrupt by the end of the season or sooner if you grenade an engine or two. I really feal sorry for the young guys when they listen to us “old” timers bench race about the good old days with eyes glazed oevr while reminising. You would think that we were talking in a foreign language or something. Come to think of it, perhaps we were. I truely hope they will learn our language before it dies out.

  13. So, basically, we need to “tea party” the AMA, and get ready for the same “people versus establishment” war in motorcycling that is still brewing in national Republican politics…great.

    Is there anywhere in our lives that the will of the people isn’t being actively despised and suppressed?

  14. hi there.

    what can i say the 2 stroke is ajoy and a buss every time i ride it.

    the 4 stroke is so boring to ride,sounds pants and just dont get that same buss.
    plus the running cost of a 4 is a joke.
    i think the only reason why people buy 4 is they cant handle the 2 stroke.

    2 stroke forever.

  15. Quick, get thee to the MXA website for a preview of February’s edition. Jody Weisel puts the boot in to the powers that be (J’accuse)in his editorial.

  16. I have lived and breathed motocross for 25 years and am also losing interest in pro racing. Why? The sound for one. Four strokes are a deafening drone. The monster energy girls and their countdown 30 second board is ridiculous. The sport is being hijacked by the corporate profit machine. Fourstrokes are where the hype is two strokes are where the soul is. I also hate how in racing now they rebuild the entire engine after every race. Those 250Fs are time bombs for sure. A motor guy, a suspension guy, a tire guy, a goggle guy… AND WE AS THE CONSUMERS PAY FOR THIS… look at the cost of parts.

  17. I would really like to see a Twostroke only magazine,maybe start out as a quarterly or a bimonthly publication.. i would think the manufacturers Ktm,Tm,Maico and possibly Yamaha would give some support to this idea.. If were gonna make amovement against the establisment, this would be a big step in the right direction…:)

  18. I agree that the shift towards 4-strokes was a sham, but not on the dealership level. Sales of offroad machines is down, and therefore profit is down. Parts and Accessories as well. (there isn’t more profit in each individual part of the 4-stroke, just more parts to replace…) At least in my area. Throw the AMA, The Team Managers, and the Lemmings (most riders) under the bus for what happened, not your dealer.

  19. @still2strokin, the reason us guys like the strokers, is we know better. The new generation doesn’t know anything other than what they read and see on TV. It is refreshing to see comments like these here, it gives me hope for our passion and for our objective. We at Revanche2strokes fight this good fight everyday as do alot of good pro 2 stroke guys, but, we are fighting the millions ( billions ) of dollars the big 4 have as well as the AMA, which, unfortunately is controlled by the same big 4. We will prevail, as the truth usually does, but keep fighting! As far as the 2 stroke magazine, if we could find a partner, we would love to do this, it is something we’ve been looking into doing for some time, but lack the funds to do it by ourselves.

  20. I think a magazine would be great. Start out smaller, like Tommy959 said. This can be a Twostrokemotocross publication with help from Revanch2strokes. Or the other way around. I am sure KTM, TM, Maico, Gas Gas, Husqvarna and Two Stroke Shop would be interested. Slight chance of Yamaha too. Maybe Ossa Trials. As well as FMF and other 2-stroke parts suppliers.
    The best thing would be to not limit it to MX. Focus on all forms of dirt bikes: MX, Enduro, Trials, Desert, etc. And on top of that have features on other 2-stroke areas: Outboard boats, snowmobiles, street bikes, etc.

  21. I agree Tommy959! That would be Awesome to have a Rag dedicated to all things Two Stroke!! I went to a lot of different practice days at local race tracks here in Michigan in 2010 and the amount of two strokes was amazing. The majority were 125’s. And on race days the 125 B/C class was stacked. Local racers are figuring it out!! I am 39 and riding a 2003 YZ 125 and having a Blast!!! It is just a matter of time!!! We need to keep up the fight!

  22. It’s amazing how when I talk to guys younger than 30 how they have no idea about two stroke superiority. It’s as though, they have all their knowledge of two strokes based purely on a 125. And what do they compare that 125 with, 250f’s or bigger. It’s rediculous how they think my KTM 300 has no torque, and needs to be rebuilt all the time. This is coming from guys who have ridden 125’s then stepped up to 250fs. One guy told me in the 9 months he’s had he’s 250 f, he’s only had to check the valves a couple of times and drop the oil and filter every 8 hours. That’s MORE than I’d do to my 300 and it has heaps more power, torque and weighs less. The one guy who thought two strokes were all top end and nothing else, I actually gave him a ride of my 300, he came back saying I’ve changed my mind about two strokes and he can see why I love my bike so much. He’s still a four stroke guy, but that’s alright, different strokes for different blokes, but atleast he’s been educated and I’ve heard him telling other how much torque the 300 has.

  23. Oh, I just love retelling this story. A couple of months back, a mate (450 YZF) and I (KTM 300) went for a ride in the bush after it had been raining for about two weeks. We came to this super greasy hill, where my bike would just purr up it right on idle with out a problem. Not so with my mates piece of crap, by the way he has the offroad 450 (not a mx bike) so it’s supposed to be suited for offroad stuff. Anyway neither of us could get his heavy piece of junk up there, but him and I could both get my bike up. And four stroke guys are always saying how two strokes have no torque, yet a 300 two stroke shows up a four stroke 1 and a half times bigger than it.

    Just spoke to a guy yesterday he rides a 250f his mate has a 450f Honda. His mate blew it up spent 3 or 4 grand fixing it, then blew it again only months later. Apparently he’s going to rip that offensive piece of junk out of his late model chasis and put a CR 500 motor in there, like it should have had in their in the first place.

  24. it makes me so mad to see what motocross and supercross are turning into!riding is lost with 4 strokes!stupid money making gay honda they stuffed it all up!

  25. The 2-stroke has more torque is lighter and easier to repair. I just have a hard time understanding why in racing you would change to a slower, heaver, less efficient engine with more parts to break! I don’t think that would happen in any other racing. Its a shame its all about money.
    Shame on the big 4!!! 2-Strokes for life!!!

  26. Look what 4strokes did to MotoGp, it got rid of the middle 250 2t class and turned it into a 600cc Honda engine class. Its no longer a stepping stone class for up coming racers. Now anyone can race in it.
    4strokes already killed MotoGp its just here to kill us too.

    2 Strokes for life, fight the power!!

  27. Guys, the reason people are racing slower, more expensive machines is about the agenda the big 4 have implemented in this country. They have convinced those who do not think for themselves to go along with the propaganda that is being pushed, they’ve also “bought” the AMA and the FIM and thus changing the rules to accomadate this agenda. Whether or not you agree with the results, they are well planned, well funded and for the most part, it’s working. Those of us who do not buy the crap that’s being force fed to mainstream USA are trying to change this. The first thing we need to do is to change the stupid rules in competition at the national level, once the populace see’s the truth, our “fight” will be much easier.

  28. It’s refreshing to see all the good comments and the support for 2-strokes over here. I feel it’s a shame Honda, Kawasaki and Suzuki won’t make them in future, other manufacturers probably to follow them, sooner or later! :-(

    All the japanese factory bosses seem to care about, is money and profits .. and ruining the sport, the freedom of FREE CHOICE. Their engineers might be good at creating engines … but do they ride the bikes also???
    Did they ever compare the FEELING of a 2-stroke to what is offered now as a 4-stroke? NOPE

    There is apparently a conspiracy going on to completely ban and kill ALL 2-STROKE technology, maybe even down to the 50cc street scooters, and the eco-communist and environment-worshippers and -fundamentalists are deep in bed with them.
    It is sad to see, that most people seem NOT TO CARE about what is happening!

    The freakin government doesn’t want us to have and experience true MX fun and feeling. All the factory bosses, the AMA and FIM want is, to degrade us to paying morons WITHOUT A CHOICE, having to conform to WHAT THEY OFFER .. but NO THANKS!
    The youth won’t care, because they never experienced the feeling of a 2-stroke!


    We should all do so .. because ultimately, in the moment you conform with THEIR TYRANNY, you reward and support their bad decisions.
    Bad decisions must be punished .. where it hurts them most, in their pockets!!

  29. I can’t believe it !!!!
    There was a time, the customer was KING, and his wishes were respected !!
    Today these communists shit on everything the people want, like 2-strokes for example, and are busy to do away with our FREEDOM OF CHOICE !!

  30. That time will be back because the force wilL be back to the customers through the fact we are all connected to the internet.(look the power of wikileaks).In nearby future we riders create our own bikes together online as a open (technology,discussion)source.And you will see that the two stroke DI becomes the winner.

    By the way it is the 2stroke DI where the big four is realy afraid for
    Because it wil make the twostroke even more simple clean and total controlable powered,if you want hard mx or trail or dessert it wil be only a case off software.It will give to much power to the customers in the eyes off the big four.Thats why they pokered on the 4stroke to sabotate the 2stroke DI

    Just forget the big factories,AMA and FIM (together only maybe 120riders)
    We have the force through the internet to create our own mx world
    Create your favorite bike(even aircooled twinshocks) by just klikking some components(like a game) from different parts suppliers.Part suppliers with there own specific speciality. And after few days your bike delivers at your home.We can testride each other bikes and publicate on forums.Maybe a idea for to start with it.
    We can also create our own worldchampionships with the help from internet.

    BY BY big mighty companies here comes the FREE-DIRTBIKE-COMMUNITY.COM

  31. The big 4 don’t care about what some of the people want in regards to their agenda. If their agenda is the same as the people’s wishes, it’s great, if it isn’t, we loose. Well……. we lose this one. Besides, only some of us don’t want 4 strokes, the ones who want 4 strokes, are those who are easily manipulated and will follow what they are told to do. The big 4 know this and since it follows into their plans, it’s a win/win for them. We strokers are a loner/rebel bunch, but “FOLLOWERS” number in the billions, so they are heard and we are not, unfortunately. Again, we need to get people in place to change the AMA/FIM rules, once this happens and people see the end result, it will be easier for us to accomplish our goal. What’s really odd to me, is we don’t even get a say, we don’t want 4 strokes to go away, we just want a chance to compete fairly and let the chips fall where they may. The other side, want a complete demise of the 2 stroke. The 2 stroke they grew up with, the machine that rarely ever let them down, the same machines that catapulted the big 4 into top world standings in MX, SX, desert racing and road racing and then they are absolutely abandoned for inferior machines, under the guise of being too dirty. Then they don’t have the b**** to put their billion dollar technological machines in head to head competition. Yeah, it sounds alot like communism to me, and we are allowing it!

  32. Yesterday, I received a lettre with a petition in it to sign. The writer was asking to help keep a motocross track open as there were complaints and possibilities te close that track. Last year another track had to close because people have started to complain. It was a track that has been there for 50 years and sits in the town both Harry and stefan Everts grew up. The main complain is SOUND! Those fourstoke bikes are closing the tracks with their sound waves that travel much farther than the ones produced by twostroke engines. I have 2 CR500s and you cant hear them on the track with the fourstrokes also on it (wich is a shame because they produce a fantastic sound). Fourstrokes are ruining everything that is motocross in the long term!

  33. Fourstrokes digging here own grave.
    Here in the Netherland the same . A lot tracks closed trough to much sound.
    And now 2011 new sound ristrictions 94d thanks to the 4strokes, but maybe the 4strokes gona blow them self up trough heat.
    The idea 4strokes are so much easier to ride i don`t agree.Magazin rubbish
    I rode a few 4 strokes and started realy to hate them, i couldn`t corner/carving them, i got crasy from the engine brake.
    Now i am riding 2stroke again and al the happines is back.
    2stroke are much more easier to ride becuase they have more horsepower
    it sounds maybe strange but for a easy ride you need horsepower
    You can gear it up (i ride my exc300 14/44) play with jets play with cilinderheads,powervalve spings,ignitionswitches e.c.
    In fact you can make a 500cc 2stroke even easier to ride as a 450 4stroke.
    gear it up, put flywheelweights on it, and there you have a 4stroke like tractor.But fheaderlight compared to 4stroke.
    the big four hated the 500cc the most because a 500cc 2stroke will last your lifetime.The honda cr500af or maico500 are in fact the most chaepest bike you can get you just have to buy only one in lifetime

  34. Hey all you stroker guys, we are fighting for the life of the 2 stroke at every opportunity, to do this, we need to sell shirts and hoodies. Please visit our site and check em out and help us if you can. We are and thanks.

  35. I agree, we need to back to the competitive racing of the 2-stroke days. You know, when McGrath won everything from 93 to 01, then RC domintaed from 01 to the current days. RJ or Ward winning everything, then Stanton and Bayle. The sport is always dominated by a couple guys. Wake up! What the hell are you talking about? Racing always has 1 or 2 guys who dominate, 2 or 4 stroke, doesn’t matter, you always have 1 or 2 guys. Please tell me when we had more than 3 or 4 winners in the premier class. NEVER!
    Open your eyes, in 2010, we has some AWESOME battles in the 250f class. AWESOME! All you fools sound like Bob Hannah, stuck in 1984.

  36. If I’m not mistaken 1997 had several winners that year. Mcgrath, Tortelli, Emig, Lusk, Windham and Larry ward each won a supercross that season. There might have been more but these are the ones that I remember. The racing was WAY better with 2 strokes. No question about it.

  37. I have an idea… don’t try to make an argument here. You will not win. READ. We dislike four strokes because of what they’re doing to the sport: closing tracks from noise, making riding hard obsolete, being costly… don’t call us fools for trying to save the sport.

  38. i agree with maarten to building our own bikes when i used to do mountain biking i saw people who had built their bikes all the time and in road racing it happened too anyone heard of a triton so why does it not happen as often in motocross imagine a DI KTM 250 engine with a 300 big bore kit on it in a kxf 250 frame along with a few other extras maybe FMF pipe Scar clamps and a suspension tune up. it would smoke any 450 out there plus you would finish every race with a massive smile

  39. @RM125RacerUK, the spineless AMA will not allow anything over 285cc in regards to 2 strokes at the natioanl level. Even if you did “build” a successful 2 stroke, you would need a top 2-3 guy to race it. Very few top racers are going to upset the apple cart and go against the grain. IF you accomplished all that would be required and you were able to win, how long do you think it would take Honda to change the rules again and you’d have to start over. This is the problem, they ( the big 4 ) know they cannot compete 250F for 250 stroker, this is why Yamaha does not support their own 2 strokes. Right now, the 2 strokes are politically incorrect and this goes along with their plan, to deceive everyone into riding/racing inferior machines as most people “follow” rather than lead. They make millions off of the parts they sell under the guise of being “green.” A winning 2 stroke would be out-ruled if they won consistently. How long do you think the big 4 would stand for “dinosaur tech” beating their state of the art weaponry? As I said on an earlier post, we need to get the rules changed from within, then we could dictate and not be subject to…..

  40. i am gona quote Charlton Heston two-stroke ” out of my cold dead hands” i rest my case.

  41. Man o man is it nice to see some sane fans in the mx industry, not a bunch of brainwashed thumper humpers. I’m so tired of all the preaching about the “technologically advanced” four-strokes. They make the same horsepower with twice the motor size 3x the moving parts, weigh 30lbs more and cost 2 to 3000 dollars more..hello! When are people going to realize they’ve been worked over? O yea when their moto drops a valve destroys their cam cracks their piston etc and 3 grand later ding! The light comes on. This sport is in jeopardy bc of a bunch of suits that probably don’t even ride are making decisions that fill their own pockets. Something needs to be done soon or the sport that we all know and love and are so passionate about will be gone.

  42. I just bought my new 2011 250sx KTM because of all the reasons above! I have been riding and racing for 40 years and I am soooo thankful KTM has continued to produce such a nice quality 2 stroke that I would like to shake their hands…….when I get back from riding!

  43. I reakon honestly if you sat down and asked James Stewart which bike is more fun to ride it would be a two stroke….
    they rip

  44. @ Tonygee. Unfortunately James Stewart is paid to defend the four strokes as he has publicly done, however i agree with your comment away from his sponsors he would have a different opinion. There is a good video on youtube of Ricky Carmichael in retirement ripping up a track on an RM 250 2stroke and he is lovin it, check it out if you havnt allready seen it.

  45. I grew up riding 2st and fell into the need more power 450. what due I have a 8k piece of crap 09 crf 450 with not dialed fuel injection and nervous feeling front end. Bought a 03 cr 250 a year ago stock suspension handles like a dream but lacking power due to the case reed induction. Honda should have never got rid of the torque reed induction. Now I have two bikes and a 09 that needs everything replaced to make it good, clutch top end is worn blaw blaw blaw. Had the suspension revalved by a major tuning company and still doesn’t handle as good as the 03 cr out of the box comletely stock. Needs triple clamps link arm yaddi yaddi ya. So I decided I am going to sell both and just got a 11 ktm 250sx maybe eventually drop the 300 kit in it. Think I am coming back to my senses. I’m not rich, muffler packing is shot and it is cheaper to buy a slip on exhaust brand new then repack stock. What is wrong with this picture. Went to the shop yesterday to buy a extra Br8Eg for the 250 and it was 6 bucks, didn’t 2st plugs use to be cheaper then that. Seems like everything is getting gouged these days. Is it the whole mail order thing or what, things are getting out of hand.

  46. @Ren Schmidt I agree with what ur sayin but if enough amateurs did that then the big 4 would die out or be forced to begin building two stroke again and if you do need a pro try cedric soubreyas and get him training like the top 3 he might be competitive in the outdoors if you could maybe get jsr performance (coz if i can remember rightly i think its them that make dfi banshees) on board along with fmf and showa and maybe ktm or tm aswell and as far as rule changes go if you could even get the ama to drop the minimum weight restrictions the two stroke might be able to show the fourstrokes how to move even with the stupid restrictions in displacement imagin how awesome the win would be if it was sucesful

  47. Hey guys,
    I’m 17 years old and have been riding a two-stroke since I was 12. I’ve also riden the ol KLX 4’s and the new High-rev timebombs too. I ride the 4’s for 5 minutes and want my 2-smoker. I’m just wondering what I could do to force the big 4 out in my area (Seattle, Wa.) I’d just like to say that comparing the 2010 Monster Energy SX to the 2007 SX I attended I enjoyed the ’07 race more…probably cause there was real racing (2-strokers kicked ass!) If you get the two-stroke rag up and running definately add me to the subscription list!!

  48. Just came off of a YZ450 and picked up a new to me 08 GasGas EC 300 and it rips. I missed that 2t power. I haven’t been this excited about riding since I got my first big bike (1991 KX125) way back when.

  49. Most of you won’t have heard of the Woodville GP in New Zealand. Its the only GP formatted moto cross event in New Zealand. This year was its 50th anniversary, drawing hundreds of riders and thousands of spectators over 3 days of racing. However, the best bit. Amongst an MX2 field of the latest 250f fuel injected machines, Rockstar Yamaha team manager Daryll King lined up on his YZ250 two stroke, took podium placings in the first two races, then exploded out of the gate in race three to a dominating lead that was never in question. He took the MX2 overall for the day from the “future of moto cross” fuel injected 250f’s. Yeap this guy is fast, prefer’s the 250t over anything else and also, was probably the oldest guy in the field. He only races occasionally as he’s usually busy running his team of a YZ125, 250f, and a 450. Rumour has it he gets out the 250t just to annoy the people turn up their noses at a two stroke these days. Good man!

  50. It is a harsh reality what pro racing has become – “a show”. Many facets of pro racing are not geared to the enthusiast…. They are geared to draw the general population off their couch and into stadiums. Hence, you see Stewart, Reed, Villipoto and Dungey marketed so heavily (ever notice they are on different brands) and given every possible advantage over the privateer teams. Brand and rider recognition are key to draw the general public.

    Regarding expense – four stroke racing has made every level of motocross a “rich man’s” (read political) sport. When was the last time you saw a “true privateer” win a supercross… What happened to the days when you could qualify for a national event out of the back of a pick up truck?

    So in my opinion the decline of our sport is not the issue of the fan (largely non enthusiasts) – it is primarily an enthusiast issue and secondly a manufacturer issue. If you want two stoke motocross bikes to come back – write to the AMA (AMA is a mnfg rep and street bike supporter).
    – Allow for leaded fuel again
    – Develop a two stroke privateer class (imagine the bar banging here…)
    – Allow for works bike exemption in this class (really like this as it will start new development programs and bring the tinkerer back to our sport)

    If a revolt is in order:
    – Vote for a 250 class on the national level (nice job MX sports creating a 250 support race at Red Bud)
    – Join a smaller organziation (OMA, NMA, etc are good ones)
    – Fund a local club with your time & energy and share your premix passion
    – Most importantly – vote with your wallet. BUY A TWO STROKE! If four stroke sales tank and two strokes sales go up – what would you produce if you were Honda?

    Yamaha, KTM, GAS GAS, Fantic, TM and several other european companies make them… You can buy an aftermarket one from Service Honda. Heck, buy a used one and get some cool aftermarket parts from your local dealer (the guy who supports your local tracks with sponsorship $’s and time).

    So if you want a better sport and the fun that comes with it –
    Get involved and vote with your wallet!!!!

    Proud owner of a 2004 RM 250!

  51. Here’s an idea: Don’t anyone buy anymore 4 strokes. I won’t. Never have. I’m racing an old (and I mean old) RM 250. I was looking at the YZ about a week ago but backed out. I don’t want a payment right now. But when August rolls around I’m gonna get me a new YZ 250. Yeah, 32:1 baby!

  52. My crank mod will allow any 2 stroke to outperform it’s 4 stroke rival,my customers do it every day. WE CAN BRING BACK the 2 stroke !!!!!!!

  53. Wayne Smith

    Do NOT buy a YZ. Buying a Yamaha 2-stroke is just as bad as buying a 4-stroke. Yamah will use that money to develop their 4-strokes. Buy a KTM, TM, Maico, or Gas Gas. In fact a KTM 250SX is cheaper than a Yamaha YZ250, and it is a much better product.

  54. good one 2 stroke… kinda with ya… just bought a 2011 Husky CR150… and to think I almost bought a Yamaha… glad I waited for the Husky.

  55. Nom De Guerre
    What is the Husky like? I have never gotten to ride one.

  56. not sure on the 2011 CR150 yet… but I have had several of the 125’s and they are really great bikes, the motor is one of the best ever and quite durable. Really stoked… I wanted another Maico/MMX, but they seem to be a joke and would rather string out press releases… I thought about a the new TM, but really don’t fancy the AL frame…Plus, there isn’t anything better than wringing the life out of 125/150…

  57. Good Morning
    I dont agree that thumpers have ruined everything.
    I have a cr500r and a crf450r I really like both of them and have for a long time.I find that the sky rocketing cost of engine parts can be controled with regular maintaince and common sense If all you do is ride with no up keep you will pay real big in the end whether it is 2 stroke or 4 stroke.
    I dont allow my self to get all wadded up in the politics of it all.
    I raced as a privateer in the mid 80s to the mid 90s and have seen a lot of changes some good some not so good.
    When I paid $4000.00 for my 500r I thought oh my god this is the end of our sport , when the 500 class was eliminated on the AMA circut I thought oh my god this really the end of our sport. When I paid $6000.00 for my 450r I thought when is it going to end?
    But then I had a moment of clarity now in my 50s what I do is moto cross.
    I mean real moto cross I ride because I love to ,I show the youngsters the trade becaue I love to. It doesnt mean a hill of beans what you ride as long as it is in the dirt and you love what you do.It is eaisier on the kids today with the less abrupt power delivery, the latest and greatest frame geometry and suspension. My 450r is a lot easier on my tired old body .
    Moto cross always was my sport of choise and always will be no matter what I have to ride.
    Lastly make no mistake it still takes skill and trainig to race motocross or every one would do it.

  58. Hello fellow bikers!

    The two strokes are absolutely the best for motocross. I am 54 and I love to ride anything!
    There is nothing like the thrill of a two stroke machine! My 1986 kdx200 is the best hill climber I have ever rode or owned. I had a ls sleeve put in, replacint the nika seal cylinder. I cleaned the ports and installed a wiseco piston, and rode many hours on it. Four strokes have their place, I have a street legal xr600 that I use for dual sport riding. I would never use a four stroke motocross bike for a dual sport machine! They will not hold up – heard of many burnt out top ends!
    I too would like to see two stroke motocross become more the common place!

  59. The shops will tell you, the 4 strokes are great, why is it they are basket cases on many websites for $400 used 250F/450F bike in pieces. It will cost $2000 to rebuild the motor and they bikes are being parted out/thrown away. The re-sale on 4 strokes is pitiful at best, 2 strokes are bringing more money, more fun and EASIER to work on. I can buy a complete top-end kit for $120 try that on a RMZ450.

    The sport has changed, it has become a non-event, only a few top riders with advertising galore like a glorified race-car event. The 2 stroke bikes made it possible for entry level riders to buy a 125/250 used and ride. The 4 strokes if stored all of the expensive gasket/seals will be shot, the top end will be shot and the bike will be worthless. The expensive fuel injection is just like Nascar, a BORING PAID COMMERCIAL event.

    If you think back to the 90’s/early 2000’s motocross/supercross events were Family oriented, now it is about half-naked women, some sports drink and IMPOSTOR news anchors and movie stars a JOKE.

    I don’t care about sport drinks, big MEGA CORP companies with billions of dollars, shoes ads or some bimbo with a sign. Bring back the days of Ricky Johnson REAL racing not some tattooed freak show.

  60. I used to have a 2005 kx250f and after about 4 months i tore up two of its gears and was going to have pay like 1000 to get it fixed so i tore it completely apart and sold it for a 1000 and bout a 01 cr125r which I’ve had for around 6 months and have abused the hell out of it even broke its rear hub and the only thing I’ve had to do is replace the piston. Its also pretty messed up how if you wreck it takes numerous kicks which wear you out to start a 4 when my 2 will start 1st or 2nd kick guaranteed. To hell with fours.

  61. 4 stroke race bikes are purely ‘parts bikes’, they have no re-sale because anyone with commonsense will avoid them like the plague.

    The parts on 4 stroke race bikes just a few years old (after-market) cannot be sold, NONE of them run! It is hard to sell parts for a 2007 250F when the majority are sitting in parts bins on ‘online-auction’ sites. They do not sell there either they are a DEAD end.

    I don’t care how a vendor tries to sell a 250F or 450F, the lifespan involves spending thousands of dollars to keep it going.

    The economy will not support the 4 stroke movement it is going to fail, no one is going to be spending $2000+ when the bike cannot be sold…

    4 strokes make good recyclable materials, you sure can’t sell them new lots of left over 2009’s 2010’s just sitting… I think it is time to go back to the drawing board.

  62. I am new to 2 stroke bikes as I am just switching over this year, but it is clear that there will always be 4-stroke lovers and there will always be 2-stroke lovers. I don’t know all the specs on the 350 ktm 4-stroke, but what about a new class of 350 4 strokes vs. 250 2 strokes? I think both types of bikes would be fairly equally competetive and this would make a great pro-level class. What do you guys think?

  63. @SuzRider… It won’t happen! Sorry to burst your bubble, as it is a good idea. But, as I’ve said a million times, the rules are NOT dictated by the AMA. They are dictated by the big 4, namely Honda. And they ( Honda ) will not allow fair or close to fair competition in regards to the 2 stroke.

    If you read their marching orders and their history mainly the history of Mr. Soichiro Honda, he had stated many times, his hatred for all things 2 stroke. Unfortunately, years ago, they had to play by the rules and to win, they needed to do it with 2 strokes. So in their “dark” days, they built, raced and won with the mighty stroker. This propelled them to the number one position in the world and gave them the money to dictate the rules. This dictating, is why we now have little to no 2 strokes being able to compete.

    The AMA hides by stating that “the people” decide the rules by voting in council members, yet the people want to see the 2 strokes back or at least a fair chance for them. If you go to my web-site: and click on the “ABOUT US” page, you will see my conversation with an AMA official about this very thing.

    We need not give up or get frustrated, we must all continue the fight against these idiotic ruling(s) and make our voices heard. To do this, we need to inundate the AMA offices with our letters of anger ( keep them clean and civil ) and buy 2 strokes whenever we can. We also need to support companies who are fighting for their survival and another thing we can do is to contact the smaller companies like TM, KTM, Gas Gas, Husky, Maico, Aprilia, Gilera, et al and tell them we want them to support their bikes at the highest levels of racing in the AMA. these companies ( and others ) build great 2 strokes, but I think they are afraid of going against the grain and will not support them and this is wrong. These companies need to hear from us constantly. They also need to hear that we are highly disappointed in their efforts ( or lack of ) to ship more 2 strokes to the United States, I agree that we are not the only market, but we are a huge one and yet, we seem to be the most neglected. People are screaming for more 300’s and especially the new 150’s and we are only getting token amounts. It’s uncalled for!

  64. Most of you guy`s comments are spot on i used to buy a new cr250 and sometimes a cr125 every year i would get the ones they didn`t sell when the new models came out and get them at a discount price.I bought a new cr500 01 model in 2003 used it for 5 years then sold it back to the dealership i bought it from for exactly what i paid for it.I rode it every second weekend in the sand dunes and it only ever needed very basic maintenance it was still on standard bore when i took it back to the shop.I have ridden a few crf450s and some yzf and wr450s but they are as boring as driving the truck out there.The guy`s at the Honda dealership where i used to buy bikes from now only see me when i get parts for the crs i am restoring in my back shed.Now i have another cr500 01 model a cr500 89 model and a cr250 96 model all in as new condition i am 40 years old and these bikes should see me through.

  65. Good Morning
    Keeping in mind this is a 2 stroke web site(hence the name)I think it is a broad scope of opinions. I still have and ride my cr500 and find it to be cheap to keep. However I have not had to mortage my house to ride my 450r.
    Looking back on my life I guess it is sad that I was or am not one of those truly gifted riders that absolutly destroys his bike every ride or race,2 stroke or 4 stroke .The rider that mentioned the surplus of $400.00 dollar 4 stroke basket cases please let me know where they are, I live in western North Carolina .If you come across any local late model 2008-2009-2010- 450r (honda,s only please )
    I would really like a couple of them.
    $2500.00 compared to $8000.00 seems pretty cheap to me .
    Also I do agree with one thing The run away cost of after market parts.
    I can not in my mind justify $500.00 or $600.00 dollars for a big brand name exhaust. I dont blame the big 4 for this I dont really know where it started ,
    but I do remember a similar pattern in the 80s and 90s, Just because a bike with big brand parts wins on sunday doesnt mean you will to.Its the riders skills not the bike duuh.Why not go after these guys instead of the factories?
    One last rant if I may, Works Parts, I guess times have really changed.
    In my little mind Works Parts are one off hand built parts with some sort of mechanical advantage.
    Not parts that are mass produced with looks only in mind.
    Well thats my spin on those evil 4strokes

  66. @bwwapp You kind of miss the point! Yeah, if you are not a serious racer and more of a trail-rider, a 4 stroke will survive. But, why by a factory “racer” if you are trail riding?

    I digress, the point(s) of most if not all 2 stroke fans are two fold. We struggle to see how any serious racer could spend the money for a $10,000 motorcycle then 1/4 to 1/2 of that cost a year to keep it competitive. It’s stupid, but, what’s more stupid is the fact that the factories get away with this and you 4 stroke fans buy into it under the guise of being green and or having the most current technology. Not to mention that most people are followers and will buy what they see their favorite racers riding, which isn’t 2 strokes, not because they are inferior, but it’s because of the stupid rules/penalties they have to compete against.

    Which brings me to my main point and the biggest complaint we strokers have AND everyone should have. Both engine types should be allowed, it should be the consumers choice, but with the rules setup such as they are, our “weapons of choice” cannot compete fairly. This hurts the 2 stroke in the showroom and we are tired of it. If racing was fair and the 2 stroke was beaten, so be it. But, it doesn’t get the chance and the “blind” public judges the 2 stroke on this fact. It’s assanine and the spineless AMA/Jap factories are making a killing off of inferior equipment and the best machine cannot compete.

  67. Good Morning
    Oh yes I do get the point.
    I agree that two strokes should be able to compete on a national level.Hell why not ,it is good to show a sport that has diversity.I believe it is the rider not the bike any way.
    I agree that two strokes are eaisier to work on and cheaper to maintain,which gives the modern day privateer a fighting chance TODAY I have had many 2 strokes and still believe they are still competetive. My big hang up is the people that claim 4 strokes are $10,000.00 time bombs.Because the are upset with the AMAs politics.I resisted 4 strokes for years until I rode a couple ,I found them to be easier on my tired old body, carry more speed ,steer with the front not the back, less stop and jerk. But thats just me .
    Deep down 2 strokes are what I was raised on ,all the way back to my elsinore,s .In the 70s I even had the most useless dirt bike in the universe, a Harley Davidson mx 250. On a local level which is where I compete ,I am not a big time pro ,I am just a racer out of the past, but I get all excited when a rider lines up with a two stroke and there are a lot of them. (Yes no AMA rule, run what you brung) .Not for any glamorus notion but because that rider is doing what he or she loves ,racing motocross. I dont like trees, rocks ,roots or water crossings. 2 strokes are a little piece of the big picture ,I am deeply sadened that honda does not make them any more.
    I dont think if you get every AMA member to vote yes on 2 strokes competing in moto cross nationals any change will occur, WHY? I cant say.I would certinly vote yes. The AMA should come out of the cave and allow any rider that qualifies as a pro race any bike that passes the safety and noise regulations.The production rule is no more than lip service any way ,some factory reps are quick to say that they spent $20,000.00 to save 10 pounds.On TV no less.
    I think your better chance is on the local level where people race because they love the sport.Prize money is very slim, I know you cant live on love and you still need a job, but what else in the present time do you have? Now for the paradox You fight for equality on the national circuit ,You win ,now your top end is now $800.00 compared to my $400.00 because now some fat cat says look at all the profit I am missing out on.
    Let us all not be so short sighted to actually believe that If 2 strokes are in fasion again that every thing will be as it is now.If 4 strokes are only for profit you got to believe 2 strokes will catch up if the rules change.In the old days I got some free parts thru honda support programs , but when I had to buy them my self they were not giving them away.As far as the GREEN component of a four stroke, carbon monoxide is carbon monoxide their are no catalitic converters on dirt bikes that I know of ,so they would have trouble selling that attribute to me. My 500r is highly tuned and is not a bug bomber.
    Well I spoke my piece, call me a traitor if you must ,I look at life like bell bottoms and tie died “t” shirts ,nothing lasts forever.

  68. @bwapp. You seem to be intelligent and understanding of the whole picture, this we need more of.

    To clear up a couple of things, the rider who is racing at the NTH degree DOES have the $3000 to $5000 dollar repairs, it is the way the 4 stroke racers are designed, don’t get me wrong, I am not saying they are designed to blow up. But, they are at the finest edge of squeezing every drop of power out of them and they are very, very susceptible to detonating and when they do, they take alot of expensive parts with them. If you race casually or tail ride, they will do ok. Even these have issues and when they do, they are expensive, on a 2 stroke, it’s rings or piston and rings with an occassional bore.

    Here’s my beef with Honda and most 2 strokers feel the same. Years ago when they had to play fair, they could not win in MX, SX, road racing or any super competitive motorcycle sport with their 4 strokes, and they tried many times. So, they went to the “dark side” and made 2 strokes to compete with. By doing so, they won……. alot, made a ton of money, and now that they have all of these funds, they are able to buy/dictate the rules. The first thing they did, was changed the rules so that the 2 stroke ( which they’ve admitted is a superior engine design ) can no longer compete. The hypocritical side of this burns us! Mr. Soichiro Hoinda stated many times, his hatred for the 2 stroke.

    The AMA is under pressure ( I’m putting it nicely ) to govern/rule in such a way that it caters to the Japanese and their hatred for the 2 stroke. If you go to my web-site: and click on the “About Us” page, you can read my conversation with an AMA official on this matter. He stayed in-bounds with his efforts, but, it is clear to see that they are not the decision makers at this level. We should be able to compete FAIRLY and then the buying public can decidee, but the way things are, they do not get a clear, true picture. This picture is the reason the 2 stroke sales of new bikes are hurting their future. They buy what wins on TV, not what the true better bike is, this is the hard part.

    However, the Euro’s are getting it right ( sort of ) by offering the public a choice. In most Euro countries, they are allowing fair racing and it shows in the showrooms. The 150 and 300 2 strokes are “flying” out the door. This is a KTM rep’s words, not mine. The part they are not doing very well, is that the Japs have convinced most Americans that the 2 stroke is of the devil and is therefore politically incorrect. By doing so, the Euro companies that make 2 strokes are not wanting to go against the grain, by supporting 2 strokes at the highest level of AMA racing. This is unfortunate for all. Instead of putting their 250 2 strokes that match the 450 4 strokes almost across the board for power, and would give them a great chance of winning, they put the heavy, underpowered 350 against them. Does this make ANY sense to any intelligent person? No, it does not, but it is in staying with the PC stand the Japs have engrained on the unsuspecting public.

    It is ( was ) the same in MotoGP, it used to be 500 2 strokes that were limited to only 4 cylinders and 500cc’s. The 4 strokes could be 1000cc’s and up to 6 cylinders and a weight penalty on the 2 stroke. This was talked about happening in the 250 and 125 2 stroke classes, when word got out, KTM, Aprilia, Gilera, et al, fought this. Honda paid their money to the FIM and voila’ the rules changed that forced the 2 strokes to compete with way too many disadvantages and they could not. Now it’s all 600cc Hondas in the MotoGP 2 class… oh what fun and fairness!!!

    I’ll end it this way, the public thinks the 2 stroke is inferior, Honda and the rest of the Japs know better, but they have their agenda and they know the American public is gullible and will buy what they are told, and guess what…. it’s working. So us stroker fans know the truth and so do the Japs, but we are tired of the diesel crowd spewing the talking points from the Jap boys without any clue as to the real truth. Food for thought, before the rule change, the Japs and EVERY MX/SX fan on the planet praised the power, lightweight, ease of maintenance and low operating costs of the 2 stroke.. KNOWING full well the pluses and minuses of the 4 stroke, then almost overnight, 100 year old technology became superior?????

  69. Hello again Mr Schmidt
    If I understand correctly it is not that you can not race at a national level it is that you cannot buy two strokes any more.I read my rule book today and did not see a ban on two strokes, but Iam sure they have some weighted rules that lean to the likings of the 4 strokes other than the 250 2 strokes against the 450 four strokes.My thouhts are this , in the spirit of the production rule and I say that lightly if a model year is 2 stroke it should be legal right,the rules call out displacement and bike weight not horse power or model year.So my question is this why dont all those die hard 2 stroke riders freshen up the bikes and go race nationals? As a privateer you answer to your self and core sponsors . It would be a spectacular showing to the industry that 2 strokes are not spauned from hell are competitive and
    allow a greater showing in the sport,no corporate america ,kinda like david against golliath. If I read the displacement rules right it would be no different then the old open class 125cc to 500cc which is were i spent most of my time after the death of the 500 class ,I am sure you remember that horrible time when 500s fell from grace and were taken out of national competition as class of their own.Then the factories put all those R/D dollars in the 250cc class which truly broke my heart.

  70. Mr. Bwwaap I believe you spelled out one of the situations two strokes face in your last post– DISPLACEMENT. When you have to give up 200cc right from the start, how is that fair competition?

    A friend of mine quoted an old saying, which may have come from drag racing or stock cars “There is no replacement for displacement”.

  71. @bwawapp. Yes and no, we CAN race at the national level with 2 strokes, the problem is that they have to be no larger than 250cc in the 450 4 stroke class and no bigger than 125cc in the 250 4 stroke class. This (almost ) 1/2 size rule is bad enough, but when the 2 strokes STILL won, they changed the rulings again. Now they cannot run leaded fuel and they have to meet a certain weight limit. These 3 things are too much and the 2 strokes cannot compete. If they were able to with these stupid rules, Honda would change the rules again.

    No, they haven’t outlawed 2 strokes and they are available from Yamaha and the Euro’s, it’s just as I stated, the public buys what they watch on TV and everyone races 4 strokes ( see my earlier comment ) so this is what they buy. The Euro’s make and sell them but do not promote them here in the states. They don’t want to look politically incorrect. By the way, Yamaha puts as much effort into them as Greenpeace would. I think, they ( Yamaha ) will eventually say that they tried, but no one wants them. Their “effort” was only to make them but little to no updating or support.

    Some small ( or large ) company will fly in the current face of conforming to the masses and race/support them at every level. This company will bring in the millions of stroker fans who were left out in the cold and those fans who don’t want to be dictated to and they will become overnight heroes, mark my words….

  72. Can’t agree more. I only like to ad another reason for MX ruin, Super cross and the danger shows. More people getting hurt bad. Ok, Now the 2T issue. As an engineer and mx lover for 30 years, Totally agree that 2T is by logic superior ( Much )To 4T. Here is the logic list. 1- Lighter ( that’s a lot ), 2- More hp per cc, 3- Lower cost of repairs, 4- Easier to repair, 5- Bikes Cost less, 6- Less engine parts ( To go wrong ), 7- Quick rev and snappy , 8- Runs cooler ( Thus It’s safer ) 9- Smaller and compact ( Higher GC and less chance of damages ), 10- Less engine drag and brake, 11- Easier to start. Honestly, I only lasted 4 months on my crf 450. Everyone noticed my reduced speed and skill on it, Including myself. We all know and admit these facts and advantages, But it won’t do us any good by just talking about it. We must get united and take action. Let’s just ban the 4T by not buying it. Pressure the manufacturers. For example, Honda which is the biggest traitor ( dropping 2T & not making it anymore ) To our sport, must get punished. Let them hear our voices. It’s an revolution of MX, Join in and rise up.

  73. @MX4ever1 You bring up a good point and one not talked about much, if at all. A 4 stroke engine in principle is an ok design, if it is built with compromise, this may sound odd, but it’s true. A car or lawnmower or street bike has been designed to be “user-friendly” in that it offers good power and torque and will start and operate when hot, cold, stressed, etc. But, the 4 stroke MX/SX and even the MotoGP bikes are built to such an extreme, that when they are hot, or fall over and or load-up, they will not start until an extreme amount of kicking. And not just kicking, it has to be done just right, no throttle, long consistent strokes, blah, blah, blah. A 2 stroke by nature is so much a superior engine, just by it’s simple design. You can throw one down, even smoking hot and leave it on its side and once you pick it up, it will fire off the 1st or 2nd kick, EVERYTIME! This alone tells me that in their current state of tune/design, that the modern day 4 strokes are hugely flawed. Who hasn’t seen James or Chad or ??? fall down while leading and by the time they get their bike going they are waaaaaaay back in the pack. Consequently, I remember Ricky on his RM ( 2 stroke ) a couple of times, do this, once he got to the bike, it fired right off and he lost little to no ground, position-wise.

    I read sometime back that American Honda wrote that the reason for no 2 stroke GP bikes was they wanted to race what they sold, this is as stupid as their policies if you think about it. This would mean that you or I could go to any Honda dealer and buy an F1 car OR a MotoGP 1000cc racer. Yeah right!

    It boils down to this, the Japs, under the guise of being “green” and PC are selling a 118 year old technology to the suckers world-wide and by changing the rules, these 4 stroke wonders come across as so technologically advanced that they can even beat the almighty 2 stroke. The reason for this has nothing to do with being green. It has to do with money and ONLY money. They sell these bikes for alot of money, but their real income is from the parts they sell to the “followers” on a constant basis. A 2 stroke top end is $300.00 at best. A 4 strokes can run up to $5000.00. They also recommend that you change the oil and filter after every race, this can be up to $50.00 vs $6.00 for a 2 stroke. See the idea/plan they have going?

    Here’s my biggest beef, and one I cannot believe EVERYONE doesn’t share. The Japs have convinced “Joe Public” that the 2 stroke is the devil, and the new 4 stroke is the motorcycle MX/SX savior. Yet the Japs don’t even believe this, however as long as Mr. Public is stupid enough to believe it, they are making billions ( yes, with a “B” )of dollars on parts and here’s the funniest part, Mr. Public defends this insanity with venom, every time they argue the whole 2 stroke 4 stroke debate. They condemn the machine that just a few years ago, was the greatest thing since sliced bread. How easily they are deceived. I remember another great deception done years ago, people who were duped with propaganda and lies, their leader was from Austria and wrote a book in prison…….

  74. I will say it again…. until KTM fields some sort of 250 stroke rider, this is all beer hall rhetoric…. I love my Husky CR150, but don’t live in fantasy land… certainly, the omnipotent SX250 would be competitive in the Nats/SX. I would pony up some cash for some sort of sponsorship.

  75. Well We can only hope that some one with deep pockets steps up.To thumb their noses at the corporate america aspect of motocross.Their are non factory teams that race every weekend.
    I would never try to put a dim light on the talent and bravado of Supercross racers but that is not the sport of which we came.We started out on a ex dairy farm in the fields. Like Unidilla ,Gainsville, Red bud , Steelcity,and so on.Yes their is NO replacement for displacement.
    I do not totally believe that displacement is the biggest short fall of the 2stroke VS four stroke argument.
    Look back in the eairly days of Motocross I am sure you remember those riders on 125s that absulutely cleared the field against the bigger bikes.Des Nations events come to mind.
    As it stands the politics of our sport are way wrong and it is sad that they are, I guess if money talks, here is a thought, there has to be more 2 stroke riders than the whole of pro riders on the AMA circut.Organize and dont re up your AMA , World sports and FIM membership if the politics dont allow fair raceing you dont need them anyway,Let them know that your money demands fair rules ,That is a ton of money they wont get.
    I doubt that The big four japanese factories will want to carry the cost of the outdoor and supercross seasons for a full year.Then They may soften up their weighted rules for raceing.I dont see a big influx of new two strokes but you may get to compete cc for cc. which is a good start to make motocross a sport again. I believe Yamaha was the company that started the 4 stroke revelotion all the way back in the 70s in the 500 class it just took till the 2000s for every one to try to copy the style ,Yamaha started racing 4s against 2s in the late 90s to eairly 2000s supercross races.So shame on Yamaha

  76. I totally agree with the title!!!
    2 Stroke is the real motocross!!!
    4 strokes ruined the sport!!!

  77. I don’t know what the good ole days for 2Strokes where, But Man it must of been something else!! You see, I’m only 16 years old and I’m a DIE HARD 2STROKER!! I first started out 8 years ago on 4strokes but I crawled out of that pit 5 Years ago and I’ve never looked back again. I went from a Honda XR70R to a XR80R to a Cheap Chinese 100cc 4stroke MX bike. and then I met the 2Stroke a YZ85 to a YZ250 and now a KX500. and you know something? I WANT MORE!! I’m Addicted to The Sound, The Smell, And the Sheer Power that only a 2Stroke can supply!! I want to see 2strokes line up at the starting gate! not 4strokes!! I don’t want to go through this life DEF!! because of the 4stroke! watching those thumpers out on the track is Boring!! I want the Excitement the thrill!! the Rush! that only a 2stroke can bring!! seeing things as they are now what a Disgrace!! LET THE REVOLUTION CONTINUE!. NEVER GIVE UP, NEVER LET GO, NEVER LET THOSE THAT WOULD TAKE AWAY YOUR FREEDOM PREVAIL.
    Let’s Git er Done!!!!

  78. From what I understand/read about ‘Honda’ is they are spouting the ‘green movement’ with emissions that are lower from 4 strokes. There is NO scientific proof of carbon dioxide destroying the environment. It is all about MONEY period.

    Think about it, if you could TAX everyone/everything in existence and become a
    Billionaire who would not jump at the chance. ANYONE who disputes the entire
    FARCE of ‘global warming’ or aka ‘climate change’ now is discredited and not

    OIL is a naturally occurring substance, we are NOT running out, it did not get
    created by dinosaurs. Think about the logic if ‘dino’s made oil there would have to
    have been TRILLIONS of them. God made the earth, he made the oil that is in it
    and OIL is in wells supposedly pumped dry are now FULL again!

    The entire administration who is in Office right now has 1 agenda and this video
    shows it, you decide for yourself…

  79. Unfortunately, I do not think the big 4 will bring back 2 strokes, when they can sell a 4 stroke and get more in parts sales with 1 bike than if they sold 20 2 strokes.

    It is really a shame, I do not want a BIG TOP Heavy bike, (4 stroke that is), they are awkward, hard to start, LOUD and BORING no different than the old XR’s.

    The sport has been turned into a glorified advertising commercial for sports drinks,
    some impostor movie star host, and more like the wrestling that is on TV.

    Unless people vote, the sport will end the environmentalist have just about brought
    an end to everything. It is ironic I have never seen one of these ‘Al Gores’
    stop living in mansions 25,000 square feet, flying around in private jets, riding
    in SUV’s, eating big steak dinners, however the common people are deemed
    unworthy since they supposedly are polluting the climate messiahs air.

    I will switch to KTM, no since in supporting the big 4, they have no intention of
    bringing back the 2 stroke and hopefully KTM will not stop making them.

    If they do I am done with the sport, I have been riding since 6 years of age and now I am 40, 2 strokes made the sport. 4 strokes have dismantled it and created a vacuum of
    JUNKED 250F’s/450F’s someone had mentioned they are all over auction sites and you
    can find them at bike shops. No one is going to spend $2000+ to rebuild a motor
    on a bike that cost $8500 new. That is ridiculous and the fact they do NOT
    hold their resale value.

    It is not hard to find junked late model 4 stroke race bikes, they are all over the
    majority are on the auction sites ALREADY parted out and they are just a few years old….

  80. Yea I agree I have been watching bar to bar 2002-04 and back then (only 6-8 years ago) the super cross was so fun to watch will pretty much all two stokes and guys were haveing good fun racing. throwing tricks mid race like (Travis Pastrana) and even just celebrating 1 lap into the race because they got out in front. Its just awsome to watch.
    I’m from a country called New Zealand and lucky two strokes down here are making a come back. In our national class racing we have a 125 2 stroke only class which is the best to watch and then also 250 2 strokes can race in 250 4 stroke class which is great racing and some of our riders a world class and its good to see them racing two strokes at top level.

  81. ….LOL…. RACING 4 strokes are alot different than XR’s….. not too many roached XR’s laying about, but quite few modern racing 4 strokes that are in bits… because people think/thought they could be treated the same… anyway, I will enjoy my Husky CR150 this weekend.

  82. Is it possible for a 2-stroke succession from the AMA???

    I was a member of the AMA several years ago, I would not join now for free.

    Would the EPA be able to ban a 2 stroke series race events?

    Just some thoughts, I am going to a Husky or a KTM, more than likely going with KTM since they support the sport.

    I am done with the big 4, I can see them next building some electric MX bike and the AMA saying this is the future of the sport with sponsorship by Al Gore and the ‘Green Movement’ band….

  83. @By_Suzuki_RM250_Owner One thing is for sure, all of us and I mean ALL of us 2 strokers need to always be updating and making aware the reasons for this fight. Now, to your question, read my discussion with an AMA official at my site: and click on the “About Us” page you can see it there. The answer is, no, the AMA will not let 2 strokes compete fairly with like sized 4 strokes, the way things are currently setup. Things could change and it could possibly happen, but the AMA is dictated by the Japanese big-4. The big-4 do not want 2 strokes around ( this is mainly Honda ) and it will not change.

    If another company goes against the grain and produces 2 strokes AND supports them at the highest level of the AMA in the United States, they will garner a huge following and become heroes almost overnight. When ( if ) this happens, the big-4 will see this as a threst to their dominance and financial windfall and MAY do something about it, but it would probably manifest itself as more changes to eliminate any hope of fair competition or they will be bought out by Honda and we will have the same old thing.

    Look at MotoGP a few years ago, the 500cc 2 strokes were popular and did extremely well for the FIM, Honda bought the rule makers and now it’s 1000cc 4 strokes. People then jumped on board with the 250 2 strokes class and they became popular, so Honda bought the rule makers and now this class is all 600cc Honda 4 strokes. So the natural progression was for fans to watch the 125 2 strokes, yet starting next year, they will all race 250 Honda 4 strokes. Fair and fun, isn’t it? The people’s say is NIL!

  84. Thank you Ren. As I’d stated above, It takes an revolution ( At least in USA ) To bring back the best MX engine. Like all revolutions, We the people ( MX riders whom love the best engine, 2T ), Must first get united. Then find qualified, Knowledgeable and experienced riders to accept being our leaders. Of Course, Every one of us can and is an leader. We just need some exclusive others as an coordinators and guidances.
    Good example is Mr. Ren Schmidt. I’m ready myself. Then we all must sacrifice our time, Money, Etc, In order to get in the path of reaching our goal. Just talking and complaining won’t do us any good or the greedy manufacturers any bad. Writing letters to the authorities by the leaders, Signed by thousands of us the 2T lovers and rebels. At the track and the bike shops, Talk to your buddies about buying an 2T for his own benefit ( The 11 logical advantages I’d mentioned above ). Protest the paradox rules made by AMA and FIM to give 4T’s unfair advantage. At the track have the 4T riders trying your 2T. Make an demonstration by doing an minor repair or service ( Cylinder head cleaning or plug change, Etc ) On your 2T in front of 4T owners. Buy everything 2T. Buy 2T bikes and support the manufacturers ( KTM, MAICO, TM, GAS GAS, Etc ),that still makes them. In other words, Fight for your goal in an intelligent, Democratic and peaceful way, Not just talk. Good luck to you all.

  85. @MX4ever1 I would be happy to lead the 2 stroke faithful, either alone or with help. I am considering runnig for an AMA elected officials position and I can guarantee that the voices of he 2 stroke fans WILL be heard. Wow, I sound like a politician… anyway, I will give more info to all on my web-site www> and other 2 stroke sites as details unfold. Thanks and I will be calling on all the stroker followers for help, advisement and votes when I make this momentous move to save the 2 strokes from the trash bin. Until then…….

  86. i myself ride a fur stoke but am sick and tierd of the money. it’s like a bottomless pit to throw money into i am switchin to a 2 stoke this winter for indoor series long live the screamers.

  87. Ren, I’m with you. It’s a shame having to fight for the best engine (2T). But that ‘s how it is. It’s cold fact. Dictators. Whether in Libya or at AMA. It’s all the same. How much pollution an 2T makes over an 4T ? considering that 4T’s must run double CC’s than the 2T’s ? Also, Why not considering the manufacturing all the extra parts for 4T”S , Like valves, Cam, Etc. It will produce pollution to make them. And uses more raw materials. I love the greens and the mountains too, But let’s just be logical. I honestly believe this 4T push for 2T has nothing to do with the earth. It’s all about the greed. Humans worst enemy. Ren, Please let me know if I can be of any assistance>

  88. Thanks Ren for the site, I like it!!! Another thing to keep in mind is the environmentalist are in Washington and they need to be voted out. The entire Oil situation, by banning drilling and telling people sorry you will have to tough it is like a dictatorship. Oil is NOT from Dinosaurs and the entire ‘green’ movement is brainwashing. Basically a ‘tax’ on breathing on everything.
    Back to the 2 stroke problem, they will use this to ban them completely and they are getting riding areas shutdown as well.

    With the economy going into the toilet, I am sure the 4 stroke bikes will pile up since I don’t see anyone going to spend $8000+ on something that is a money pit with no resale.

    The way to combat this is to vote, if they get the ‘Carbon Tax’ passed, you can say good bye to most things. Including skyrocketing electricity prices.

  89. I know one thing, 2 stroke race bikes are getting rare on the used market.

    250F’s/450F’s are all over on auction sites in pieces for around $400 or so, but they are trashed.

    I will switch to a KTM or a Husky 2 stroke bike, I think Suzuki is not importing bikes, the other 3 of the big 4 are not doing very much.

    It seems like KTM is really strong on the 2 stroke front, plus they have great quality. I like my RM but I do not think Suzuki will ever make them again. The AMA is going to do what the big 4 do and they are most likely funding this political powerhouse. I am sure it has to do with the environmentalist as well, since Oil now has a big target on it. We will be lucky to be driving motorized wheel chairs if the drilling ban and/or oil wells are NOT uncapped in the USA. It is ridiculous for this country to sputter with unemployment and high energy prices when we have TRILLIONS of gallons of oil and the Government will not grant permits.

    Vote — Like the AMA once they start losing money from sponsors who could careless about the sport of MX racing ONLY selling drinks/advertising dollars. They may have to succumb to the dead end of the delicate 4 stroke bike.

    People vote with their pocket book, if the big 4 are not selling these top heavy, expensive, delicate TANKS with no resale they will either throw in the towel or bring back the 2t.

    Go look at Evinrude boat motors at the maintenance cost VERSUS a 4 stroke…

    NOW put this on a site against a 4 stroke, spending $150 for a top end on a 2 stroke VERSUS, expensive shims, valve possible, piston/rings, all of the gaskets and the cam chain. Not to mention the OIL, 4 strokes run hot, they are very fragile and HIGH RPM’s = SHORT LIFE.

  90. Here’s my rub, as I’ve stated 1000 times before, but it makes me feel better to say it again and again and again….. KTM’s biggest sellers are the 300 and 150 2 strokes, and of every 10 motorcycle that TM sells, 8 of them are 2 strokes. Meaning 80% of all TM’s are 2 strokes and 65% of all KTM’s are 2 strokes. Yet, neither of these 2 manufacturers ( nor any 2 stroke manufacturer ) promotes 2 strokes at the AMA’s highest level of MX/SX. This is an injustice and it makes them look like they are ashamed, I know why they do it, I just can’t believe it that they do!

    The big-4 have WAAAYYYYY too much influence on this countries thinking. We are Americans, free thinkers and rebels, but, not anymore. We’ve become a nation of dictated people, THIS is the biggest travesty of all!!

  91. I totally agree Ren, used 4 stroke bikes have a reputation for costing a lot of money. I have seen them selling for low dollar amounts, they cost so much and they are like a vampire they desire more & more money to keep the going.

    The entire ‘Green Religion’ is now in Washington telling Americans not to drive, that is nice so I guess eating food is an option or part of sliming down America.

    People need to VOTE, the AMA/Honda can do all kinds of things, however the wallet of the consumer says otherwise. Politicians can get voted out of Office like they did several months ago and hopefully in 2012.

    I personally believe the big 4 could careless right now, however with big top heavy, expensive, short life $8500 450F’s can sit on showroom floors.

    I am not sure about anyone else, but used late model ‘clean’ 2 strokes are fetching GOOD resale numbers. It is ironic how they tried to eradicate them like the plague and now the big tank 4 strokes are being ‘pieced mealed’ out because NO one wants them. OR they will be 2 years old with another motor in them because the original motor was a throw away to EXPENSIVE to fix.

    4 stroke = HIGH RPM’s – light weight parts – short life expectancy

    2 strokes can handle high rpm’s – light weight parts – longer life expectancy

    I seen the new KTM350F and it has titanium valves, I am sure they are well over $100 a piece. The valves will be worth more than the bike in about 2-3 years, now that is sad… but true

  92. I’ve been riding mx since about 07. my first bike was an old cr 125 i picked up for 500 bucks. that thing ran forever and i upgraded to a newer yz 125. i’ve had that bike for 3 years and it’s still going strong. one day i had the bright idea to buy an 08 crf450. i paid 3500 for it and it exploded in less than a year. what’s even worse is that in 1 year i had to spend hundreds of dollars in valves, top ends and such. when it was all said and done, the 450 was not worth fixing and i parted it out. good thing i still got my trusty 125. 2 strokes are the way to go. racing a 4 stroke is too damn expensive and it really hurts the sport when you have people giving up on their passion because their time bomb exploded.

  93. I agree with all of you. I am a 19 year old chick that rides. I own a 99 yz250 and i had it for 5 years and it has ran like a charm. 2strokes are the best bikes to have and 4strokes are just a waist of time and money. they only 4stroke that i own is a ttr-125 that was my 1st bike when i was 10. I grew up with 2strokes and i always loved them. the smell the sound and the power that they have is amazing. the funny part is i smoked my buddy on his yz250f that he had for 2 months then it blew a few hours after that race. i told him to just trash it and get a 2stroke but he said “still 4strokes will always rule and always be raced” BULL SHIT! fuck the 4strokes. the ride the big 4?s beacuse they are to much of a pussy to ride a 2stroke. motocross is 2strokes, they need to get rid of them wet fart cans they sound nasty. long live the 2strokes!!!

  94. @Diogo Mauro. Since the “following general public” won’t listen to guys like us, the big-4 love these ( your ) kinds of stories. They know that if the public listened they’d ( the big-4 ) would be out of business. They make their billions selling parts to these “followers” who “bought” the B******* about 4 strokes. Keep smoking the stroker and we’ll convince the followers to see the light somehow, even if they have to see it through a slight blue haze!

  95. I agree with all of you. I am a 19 year old girl that rides. I own a 99 yz250 and i had it for 5 years and it has ran like a charm. 2strokes are the best bikes to have and 4strokes are just a waist of time and money. the only 4stroke that i own is a ttr-125 that was my 1st bike when i was 10. I grew up with 2strokes and i always loved them. the smell the sound and the power that they have is amazing. the funny part is i smoked my buddy on his yz250f that he had for 2 months then it blew a few hours after that race. i told him to just trash it and get a 2stroke but he said “still 4strokes will always rule and always be raced” BULL SHIT! fuck the 4strokes. the ride the big 4’s beacuse they are 2 much of a pussy to ride a 2stroke. motocross is 2strokes, they need to get rid of them wet fart cans they sound nasty. long live the 2strokes!!!

  96. I ride a 2011 Husqvarna CR150 and like it… many 2 strokes of all sizes from the past… but a lot of this talk is very Brown Shirt worded … lots of stammering and the like. Until a good rider places or at least a top ten with a 250 or 144 at the Nats, the 4 strokes will still be the choice and the sheeple will follow.

  97. @Nom De Guerre, this is the problem, you are not saying anything we all know and have known. The problem is that they way the big-4 have the rules set up, a 2 stroke can not compete and win. There are way too many restrictions that the 2 stroke has to overcome. Years ago, when the first ( stupid ) half sized rule was implemented, the 2 strokes still won. Then they had another crippling change and the 2 stroke still won. Then they made the final change and it was too much and they can no longer win. As far as the 144/300 rule goes….. it also will not happen. The big-4 saw to it and shot that rule down SOOOOO fast, it never got to the voting stage. Now, you are up to speed….

  98. ok… so ride your 2004 and keep living in the past and keep pounding your chest, I mean keyboard. How are you promoting new 2 strokes by riding an old bike? How are you helping Ren, maybe you are just inflating your ego? I should bow to your feet like most of the other people here instead of saying different things… your the best and keep the same recycled words you write here and keep riding an old 2 stroke and see how far things go for you… at least I have done my part for this year instead of yapping here constantly… you are always right Ren and now you are up to speed…

  99. @Nom… Listen wise guy, I wasn’t being smart, I was simply telling you we know all of this already. Don’t be ANOTHER problem, be a solution. And by the way, we are petitioning the AMA constantly, we race and support teams that race 2 strokes, new and old. We are lobbying for 2 strokes with the FIM, AMA and other sanctions, are trying to get TM, KTM and many others to fight the good fight with us and many other good companies/people who are trying to do the same. We are in talks with Suter about a 2 stroke road race series in the states. As well as trying to get an elected position with the AMA, makes your effort piddly and insignificant, so now I ask you, what are you really doing except trying to cause grief?

  100. Nom De Guerre,
    You do have a point. One that many people here don’t understand yet. You can type all day about how 2-strokes are better and wish they still made/developed them, but if you don’t buy a new one then you aren’t helping. The best thing the average person can do is purchase a new 2-stroke. You did a good thing and at least you didn’t buy a Yamaha. Buying a Husky is better, but buying a TM would have been the best choice. TM and Gas Gas are the 2 biggest 2-stroke supporters.

    Ren Schmidt does do a lot, though. I was emailing him and if there was anything he could do to help a smaller 2-stroke brand he would.

  101. not saying Ren is a bad guy… but to close his last post with a smart ass remark shows a growing ego to me. Passion is great, but must be tempered and conversations can be made without degradation, etc. Looking at his site sure does show the love of strokes!

  102. @Nom, Sir, if you knew me and my passion you would think otherwise about me. I will try ( and do ) what I can to save the 2 stroke and the 2 stroke rider/fan. You are probably a good guy as well and I apologize if I came across wrong, it wasn’t ever my attempt. However, here’s my rub, we 2 stroke fans have to fight for everything we get as well as having to fight against the whole 4 stroke agenda, and it shouldn’t be that we strokers are fighting amongst ourselves. All of our collective energy should be put to good use to save the once mighty 2 stroke. So again, let’s bury the hatchet and move on, thank you and I do appreciate what you have done, are doing and your passion as well. By the way, all of my motocrossers, enduros, dirt bikes, street bikes, an ex-road racer, a sport bike I am building and quads are all 2 stroke, that range from old to new and alot in between. Have a good day…

  103. I bow down to Ren and will buy t-shirts from the Chancellor of 2 strokes… apparently anything other than the Chancellor’s remarks are not valid and insignificant…petition all you want and see your efforts go for nothing. Buy a new 2 stroke and stop riding the old stuff if you want to promote 2 strokes… all the t-shirts, petitions, and other stuff is good for your keyboard EGO… yes, I am arguing with you and making it known that others do have opinions that differ from yours… with your ridiculous position, all these bikes are becoming is vintage stuff… you have a lots to say here and keep riding your insignificant 2004 RM and keep yapping about the glory days while peddling lame t-shirts to the people here. You obviously have no problem with arrogance and ego, accept no words other than your own because you are the mouth for all things two stroke… all hail Chancellor Ren!!! yay….

  104. Nom De Guerre,
    YOU started the smart ass remarks against him. Maybe you should listen to your own words and watch your tember.

    No one is denying what you are saying. Buying a new 2-stroke WILL help the cause. But saying petitioning and trying to get elected positions is only good for ego is completely ignorant.
    If 2-strokes can’t be raced competitively in the Pros then the big companies will NOT support/develop 2-strokes. They will continue to spend most or all of their money on the bikes that race. If the rules could be changed their would be a much bigger influx of money to 2-stroke development then if you convinced 5,000 people to buy a 2-stroke. The manufacturers are not going to put their money into a bike that is almost guaranteed to lose.
    On the other side, if no one buys a new 2-stroke the manufacturers will not produce a new one under the assumption that no one wants them.
    There has to be a balance.

  105. I love the way everyone is arguing amongst themselves…

    Just quit, if you can’t buy a new bike, don’t. At least make the four strokes look bad on an older one.

  106. Well, Well, Well, Mr.Nom DeGurre what a train wreck you caused,I am proud of you, sorta.
    I have read a lot of posts on this site and others and have come to one conclusion This site should really be called Four stroke bashers .com.
    It seems it started as a site to unite riders to lobby for fair rules on the professional circuit. Which has merit.
    But some where along the line it attracted KooKs, snivelers, and cry babies.
    Bashing 4 strokes with all these tales of doom does nothing but show lack of common sence.Point being if you cant maintain your own equipment dont cry about paying someone else what they want to fix it.
    If what is wanted are fair rules stay on point. From what I have read Mr Schmidt has a great oportunity here, he was invited to possibly hold some sort of office in the AMA .What better way to speak his piece and possible the heart felt concernes of others? Please believe if the only argument is 4strokes blow up or have high maintainance costs( as if no one ever dumped a grand in a two stroke engine after they fried it), he will have their attention for about half a second or less. All they will say is racing machines duhh. 2 strokes are still competetive. not as bullet proof or cheap as some would imply but like any thing else if you have half a brain you can make due.
    It seems not alot of companies make them any more so older models will have to be rebuilt no crime there,Its the rider not the bike.
    I do agree though , go race some nationals get in the top ten consistantly that will prove a possible market, not crying like a little school girl.If 2 strokes are so cheap and the salt of the earth there should be no problems .Right? Talk is cheap and generaly disregarded.

  107. I have another solution. Put on a race. Make your own rules. I do.

    In my world, 2 strokes are equal. In my races, it is “run what you brung!”

    It is no use laying blame on the AMA. The AMA does not promote racing. They sold that right to a private organization (corporation). Sure, they “sanction” racing, but that just means they TAX it. It is a private promotor who puts on the races.

    Every motocross track has an owner (or promoter). That owner can run what ever rule he wants. They all run the AMA rules because it is easier than writing (and enforcing) their own. When you come to my track, be prepared to run to my rules.

    Who can you complain to? How about Feld Entertainment, Inc. 4255 Meridian Pkwy Aurora, IL 60504-7957. Todd Jendro is the Senior Director for 2 Wheeled Operations. That is who puts on all Supercross events except Daytona. has some interseting things in it like that supercross is for 4-stroke motorcycles, etc. It also has an abbreviated rules guide but the official rules are

    Oh, by the way, the reason you don’t see bikes from the smaller manufacturers is that they are not homologated. There is a rule that a manufacturer must produce “X” number of bikes. TM doesn’t, Gas Gas doesn’t, neither does Husaberg. Husqvarna has one model but only last years model. They must also pay a fee for homologation. A good quick article can be found here:

    I’m doing my part. I race 2 strokes. I put on races for “motorcycles” and I don’t discriminate. You can run a 2 stroke, a 4 stroke, a bike from China, Europe, Japan and even Canada. You can be male, female, and of any color or religion.

  108. I raced AMA pro in the late 70’s, and well into the 80’s. I still compete locally in the masters’ class. I love the 2-stroke(the smell of bean oil and Hi-test fuel) . I ride a KTM 625SX now. The cost of a rebuild is much higher, so I’ll be buying a Husky, Gas-Gas, or a KTM 2-stroke. Now they just need fuel injection so I don’t have to re-jet for my hi-altitude rides, although re-jetting is easy.

  109. 4 stroke engine blows up >>> rolling chassis + 2 stroke 500 engine ==== holy shit fast!!!

  110. The fact remains on 4t bikes:

    High-RPM 4 stroke = Kaboom it is inevitably

    The used 4t bikes are JUNK, they feel like they gain about 50lbs and starting one is a nightmare at best.

  111. im in the middle of buying a new bike and people were telling dont go with two stroke well from looking at this ill be riding a cr 85 from now on.

  112. Went riding today and spent most of time on 1998 CR125 , had the MOST FUN ever! ..and went faster, i found out that a fully pinned wound out 125 is faster than a 450 that is not pushed hard. The more i rode it, the faster i went. I loved it. needless to say, i’m looking for a 125 to buy.

  113. @ Jared great work mate not only will riding a 2stroke make you a better rider in the long run, you and your dad will be able to work on it togeather and you will enjoy allot more riding as it wont cost the earth to keep the bike on the track. Good luck with the brand you choose and congrats on a informed, level headed choice.

  114. One word…ELECTRIC. 2 and 4 strokes will give way to electric bikes like the Zero. No gas, no oil, and little maintenance. I would pay to see an electric Supercross. Just think of it, no noise! You could talk to your friends, hear the announcer, and your ears would not be ringing after the race.

  115. @Steve P Are you serious or do you have other issue’s? If ( when ) the world goes all electric, here’s my plan. I have told my family to drop me off in the woods during hunting season while I wear a pair of elk horns attached to a hat and I’m going to wear a brown fur coat, this is the only option for me as there is NO WAY I will ever partake in the electric movement. How ironic that it’s already being called the electric movement, when it sounds alot like another movement and it’s first word starts with a “B”. The awesome-ness of gas powered bikes ( 2 strokes ) is the rush of acceleration, the sounds, the smells, the ease of maintenance and super low operating costs. You can take your bike to an electrician to be fixed if you want, but we strokers will never go down without a fight…..EVER!!!!!!!!!

  116. Just saw the 2012 KTM 2-strokes. I’m thinking that a 250 SX may be my next bike.

  117. @Steve A, please don’t take this the wrong way, anyone who wants to buy ANY 2 stroke is A-OK in my book and the KTM’s ( 2 strokes ) are fantastic machines, but if you can afford it buy a TM or a Gas Gas. Also note that as of right now, I have no vested interest in either factory, it’s just that with KTM’s stance in regards to racing at the pro national level of the AMA, there position is terrible and they make zero efforts to promote/race their 2 strokes. Gas Gas, TM ( as well as Maico and a few others ) are much more pro 2 stroke and these guys need our support whenever we can give it. Read up on the new TM’s they are handmade, super exotic and as current as anything.

  118. I am 33 and raced 2 strokes growing up till I took a detour and raced and XR 400 offroad in some scrambles. I love the 2 strokes on the MX track, and loved that XR in the gnarly , mud, rocks and crap of the mountains of Pennsylvania. I got off the bike for about 3 years and was shocked to hear about how these new high rev strokers are timebombs. What a shame!! My low rev XR was a tank and super reliable, not what these guys are riding today.

    Think there is a time and place for the 4 banger, and MX and SX tracks are not that place.

    Just bought an 01 CR 125 and its almost ready to go, can’t wait to start rippin on a 2 stroke again!!

  119. i stopped watching supercross because of it being so mundane as a result of mowercross. i have owned six bikes in my life time four of them being two stroke eighty fives. when i started racing arenacross i was on my 150r and the gate dropped…. my bike seized up and didnt start, i took it to the shop and it cost a F***load. i know i didnt pay for it, but i felt the same pain as my dad did after that. i stopped riding after four more times of that happening out of five rides. then i got my first two stroke, and i was hooked. shoot i got a 03 yz85 with pro circuit everything for $800. THATS LESS THAN WHAT IT COST FOR ME TO BRING MY 150 TO THE SHOP. and yes i smoked some four strokes on that old 85. three years later im still riding my 85’s and its like the first ride on a 2stroke every time. my four stroke was like was like jumping a damn elephant. i look FORWARD to riding, racing, and fixing my bike by myself now. if people would stop trying to make a career out of motocross and just buy a 2 stroke then they would have a fan in me becauase i did that. WHy would you want to make a career out of mowercross when you could have more fun than that just riding a two smoker?? jeesh christ man it the factories loss and the riders and ktm’s gain for having up to date two strokes

  120. four strokes are like cars cut in half – 4 stoke, disc brake, straight pipe, fuel injected, heavy. two stroke mxers are like finely tuned watches. they were in a class by themselves and any kid could get started by saving his allowance or cutting neighborhood lawns, buy an 80cc or a 125 and nobody could really catch you on anything else especially a four stroke

    i’m 50, bought a YZ85 and nobody can catch me on any four stroke on a closed mx course…they don’t know what hit them, i’m having so much fun

  121. Went to High Point yesterday, 2 two strokes in the main even. Number 467 on a YZ 250 and 88 on a KTM 250. The smell and the sound was awesome. As for the other bikes the racing was so so and the track was slower than I remember it.

  122. I love 2 strokes a lot, 2-strokes are funner and faster, it was more exciting to watch motocross and supercross wit the awesome 2 strokes, now the pros can only use 4 strokes which sucks, i have a cr125 and it is way better on the track and in the trails. 2-stokes always (Wyatt Brown, nice name i never found anyone wit the same name as me)

  123. Nothing in the world beats the smell of pre-mix in the morning, the high pitched ping of that high octane oil mixed motor coming to life. Oh how I miss those days, now to be only woken up by long exaggerated fart machines. Boo.

  124. I quit going to the national at Budds Creek because of 4 strokes,I just hate the sound of them.Like a bunch of Harleys going around the track and thats not motocross.I still watch every race on tv,but its not the same racing.2 strokes much more exciting to watch and listen to.I raced for 5 yrs on a 2 stroke and if i could afford to still be racing i would be on a 2 stroke.I would never ever consider buying a 4 stroke.I think 2 strokes are making a comeback anyway Ktm sells a hell of alot of them.

  125. Ive read alot of the stuff that everyone has said and I love my 2 stroke, would not and will not own a 4 stroke even if you gave me one…but it is not all the big 4 fault, you have to start with the government, and the EPA trying to control everything, first they started with big rigs..telling them they had to lower emissions and biuld a legal emissions motor for there big trucks…then they went after boats and now you see 4 stroke on boats now.
    Now they went after 2 stroke bikes..and are making the big 4 conform to epa regs…all they did was spend a sh@@ load of money to sale and promote there
    4 stroke knowing they would loose not continuing to biuld the 2 stroke,
    but they have went to far…now they are spendin millions keepin 2 strokes out and dictatin what we can ride and cant, i dont care ill ride my 2 stroke
    and just eat up there 4 stroke all day long…if we continiue to do that they will get the pic or not even let us run in there class, hahhaa…it is great to finally find a web sight for 2 strokes…and still read the passion that we all have for our motors, i love the 2 stroke just because you are always on the edge ridin one and it gives me a work out everytime…would not have it any other way..
    i praise the manufactures who didnt confrm and are still makin the 2 stroke,
    cause that is who i would buy from.

  126. @Alen W. The epa does not now nor will they ever regulate emissions testing or require emissions testing for closed course competition, EVER!! If they did, Honda, et al would be out of the racing business as one weekend of an F1 race/testing/qualifying pollutes more than an entire season of 2 stroke motocrossers did. This is a fact that can be verified with a little legwork.

    The big-4 use this EPA emissions crap to their advantage ( it worked on you ) as a ploy for their goal. Their goal is the billions of dollars they make in selling top end parts to the followers, those who don’t question why their bikes went from 6 grand to 10 grand. Or why they went from $300 parts once a month and repairs they could do themselves to $3000 worth of parts and labor at their local dealer 2 times a month because they don’t have the $12,000 worth of tools and training. Do the math, it’ll all make sense.

    For more proof, dealers have 1 and 2 year old motocrossers they cannot sell. Or look at the used ( 4 stroke ) motocross market, bikes go for nickels on the dollar because guys cannot afford to fix these time bombs, so they dump them off to some unsuspecting guy who thinks he needs a 4 stroke to stay current.

    Last point, if it was about emissions, then 2 strokes would be banned, they are not and this is why every time an attempt to make the playing field level, such as the 150/300 petition it never makes it to the voters. The big 4 made sure it didn’t get to an up and down vote. BTW, the 2 stroke 500 GP’s weren’t banned in GP racing because of emissions either. The same regulatory commission ( the FIM ) controls both forms of racing as does the AMA in MX/SX and AMA road racing, the reason for their demise in GP racing was that brand “H” spent a ton of green backs to make sure the rules were rewritten. They tried to do this with the European side of MX/SX, but the FIM knew this would hurt some of the Euro companies so they stood their ground. Unlike the spineless AMA here. The AMA only cares about money, not the fan or members, but they will “get it” soon enough, I just hope it’s too late. I’m sorry to say this about an American company, but any company that allows their policies to be dictated by foreign companies doesn’t have this country’s best interest at heart, especially the fan base. They forgot that the fans, members and more importantly the 2 stroke made the AMA and the Japanese what they are today. There is room for both engine types, and the 2 stroke should get the chance to fight it’s way to the top, unfortunately it has way too many obstacles to overcome and unless things change, they will be nothing but a blue hazed memory.

  127. Once again I will say it: THERE WILL NEVER EVER BE A 4 JUNK IN MY STABLE!

    It’s already happening, 4 strokes are sitting on the showroom floors and more and more riders are rebuilding their 2 strokes and heading out to smoke the 4 JUNKS!

    Look at enduro, harescrambles, vintage MX, and most of all trials, 2 strokes are still there or coming back in big ways.

    If the AMA wants to turn American MX into NASCAR they can have it. The Amatuer races are better anyways!

    Unadilla sucked, follow the leader, cause no powerband, ride the outside, no cut and thrust racing! I had more fun girl watching, at one point I turned my chair around with my back to track!

    I’m old enough to remember BSAs rumbling around the dilla and the then new 2 strokes were so much faster! We went through this once why again, is it an every 40 or so years we have to revisit how slow, overweight, and hum drum racing can get by flogging machines that fire every other stroke around the tracks!

    Bleeding Premix “Forever”

  128. It’s interesting what a lot of you said about being from the older generation of motocrossers and how the current crop of up and comers will never no what they’re missing out on in respects to two strokes. And it is absolutely true!. I’m 17 myself and there is no way i would ever have even questioned the notion that four strokes were superior had i not had a friend who briefly mentioned something about direct injected 2 strokes. It got me thinking and after scouring the internet i can safely say that i am sold on the two stroke idea… how could anyone not be when they just acknowledge the simple fact that the 2 stroke is a more advanced engine? I saw a facinating 2 stroke vs four stroke comparison by a motocross magazine the other day which proved this point: They were comparing the 2011 YZ 250 against the 2011 YZ 250f (since the 2 stroke hasn’t been updated since around 2006 this is essentially 5 year old technology pitted against highly developed, top of the line, state of the art technology). Anyway, the result was that; a) both bikes weighed the same (but the 2 stroke was reported to be somehow easier to throw around) b)both bikes were the same price (strange?) and c) last but certainly not least, the yz 250 two stroke put out 10 MORE HORSEPOWER than its “more advanced” cousin. Simply put, you can purchase a bike with a lighter feel, far more power and cheap maintenance costs or you can buy one that is slower, less snappy and far inferior power wise… but looks pretty.

    Your choice :)

  129. @Tim, welcome to the “non-followers” group and congratulations. Maybe you can shed some light on us “smokers” as to how we go about getting other younger riders to see the truth. It seems that ( most ) everyone under the age of 30 has fallen for the 4 stroke hype and this is killing the true champion.

  130. Well in my particular group of friends, nearly everyone is on a four stroke. Between us we have two husqvarnas, six hondas, two KTMs and two yamahas. One of my mates has a 150 sx two stroke that he races and another shares a cr 125 with his brother but they are the only ones. In the group, only two of us are even vaguely interested in the two stroke idea; and i’m the only one who passionately believes in them. None of the others even questioned the idea that four strokes are superior. I was talking about the issue with my friend yesterday and he said “the four stroke is obviously better because otherwise, why would all the pros race them?” Well i immediately went into a big spiel about the rule changes and the fact that pros aren’t restricted by cash concerns and can therefore race anything that doesn’t put them at a serious disadvantage against their rivals. When everyone is on the same crap heap there’s onbviously no disadvantage, so they just do what their sponsors tell them. Well, after explaining all that all i got was a sceptical look, i had convinced nobody.

    Unfortunately, i feel this will probably remain the case until pros move back to two stokes. The only way to convince people that 2 strokes are just as good if not better is to have them ride them themselves, and with all their friends on fourstrokes, where are people supposed to try two strokes out properly?? There isn’t anywhere except test days. The same friend i was arguing with is in the market for a new bike as he wants to race next year and he said that he’d try out the 2 strokes at the various test days, but how is someone who has spent every moment riding bikes on a four stroke meant to get a decent feel of the vastly different power delivery that the two stroke has to offer?! There is simply no way they are going to warm to a 2 stroke in a half hour test ride!

    I do almost all my riding with this friend and his brother and my bike lives at his place due to him living on 100 acres of prime riding bushland. So currently my only hope is to sell my heap of junk crf 230 and buy a 2 stroke, let him get a decent feel and ride of it himself, and help him make an informed decision himself.

    Unfortunately, the only way currently to get young people to forgo(at least here in Australia) the four stroke is by incessant nagging and doing your best to drive the point home. I proved this point recently by debating into the ground this friends brother on the merits of why i wanted a 2 stroke (he felt i should get a 4 stroke) and successfully managed to convince him of the merits of it, although he still isn’t convinced that it is the best way to got for him personally, but its a start.

  131. Love it. Thank God. I’m just about to get back into motocross, or whatever those lawnmowers flying across a jump are called nowadays, after taking some time to grow up and get an edumacation. I have taken a boot on a 4S and I have riden the most recent 2S..2S all the way thank you. I will never buy a 4S. I would rather buy a couch (quad if you didn’t know).

  132. @JB I ride on of those couches but it’s a 2 stroke! My current ride is an 86 TRX250R and I made the switch from the 4 poke to the 2 stroke as I always wanted a 250R and plus the pure fun factor. I came to this site after doing a search on the future of 2 stroke and motorcross. I have to say that the more I open my eyes and talk to folks that race the 4 poke quads and motorcross bikes is everything is true….these things feel heavy and cost $$$$$ to fix. I was on the 4 poke bandwagon till I purchased my 250R and all I have to say is WOW! Riding on the MX track track so much more fun to do and the weight of the quad (couch) is a lot less than my older 4 poke. I truly hope the the industry opens their eyes and gets the 2 strokes back into the picture as the only races I watch at the local track are the ones with 2 strokes in them!!

  133. I love the two-stroke dirtbikes so much. I had many two-strokes when I was a kid. The smell, the sound and the aggressiveness of those machines were what made them so great!

  134. 4 strokes rule 2 strokes drool! Racing is not a cheap sport. Call it all a media hype or whatever you want, but it is how the world works. There is no way any rider on a 2 stroke would ever keep up with RV on his 4 stroke. Period!

  135. Well… It’s been a little over a month since my last post, in which i mentioned how many of my friends were riding four strokes as compared to two strokes. Well in that short amount of time there has been a huge turnaround i am pleased to say: last month only two people in our immediate group had two stokes; today there are now 6, soon to be 8. There is: 1 250sx, 2 cr125’s, 1 150sx, 1 rmx250 and 1 rm85. To add to this, one of my friends is buying a 125 two supplement his husky TE 450 and I myself am about to replace my heap o’ shit crf 230 with a cr 125.

    So… 1 short month, lot’s of changes

  136. RE: Anonymous

    Are you talking about racing under the current AMA/FIM rules? When one type of motor is given a displacement and weight advantage, of course R.V or any other type level rider will no doubt win. How about evenly matched machines ie: 250 two-stroke vs 250F with evenly matched riders on a traditional track that is not catered to any specific machine?

    Incidently, earlier this year I seem to recall there was a mention that R.V took a Pro-Circuit 125 two-stroke out and spent A LONG TIME on it

    Just a couple of random thoughts from a long-time fan of the sport. To each his own point-of-view.

  137. Jimmy Mac would have wasted RV in his day on trusty 93 Honda 250 that he rode untill they went all ali frame, when they went hard at it banging bars!!!! untouchable that why no one has broke his records yet!!!END OFF

  138. This whole column is a let’s bash on four strokes
    Bottom line is they put he power to the ground don’t t me wrong I loved my twos stroke but it was so tempermentle plus doing a topend is not to much fun and eeither is mixing and oil I love he smell the sound but four stroke is the future and the motors last longer than two strokes

  139. FOR WHAT ITS WORTH , As a life long mechanic 4 strokes which are uncompetitive ( they are otherwise displacement would be equal ), heavy , costly , depreciate fast , are of no use in motocross unless . A you own a factory that sells parts for them . B you are a highly paid factory rider . Other than that they serve no purpose other than lining someone elses pocket which is unlikely to be yours . Finally when the japanese factories can no longer sell them , the japanese factories will rediscover the 2 stroke

  140. I frequent the sprint car races often. We need to look at how the dirt/sprint car guys do it. There hasn’t been a cast iron Chevy made in years yet they have small shops construct/build new motors while others build new frames and others fuel systems… Get my point? They are out racing with no problems like we have here.

    Two stroke tech is all around just waiting to be picked up and used again. The small shops will respond and they can use the money too. Look at the early 70s small shops ran the roost, even having team Honda and others build stuff for them, and they still do!

    Yes by all means buy a new or used 2 stroke from the manufacturers who build them, but someone should make a rolling chassis in the moto form. I’m sure the patents are run out by now! Then one could buy a chassis and put whatever engine into it that they choose. Quads have shops make and sell rolling chassis, while jetski companies sell custom cylinders. We need to just adjust move over to a new venue and don’t look back!

    Gather tracks that will run only 2 strokes races on given days. It would add to their programs also. Have a national series, attract sponsors, magazines, newspapers and show the world we will get what we want one way or the other… 2 strokes racing 2 strokes all over again.

    Don’t be surprised if Honda then supplies 2 stroke engines like they do for the Chinese crap cycles, cause I’m sure they are smart enough to want to be part of the pie.

    Other options are racing vintage or classic races. Take note we do a series here in Pa and we have classes for modern bikes also, not just vintage stuff.

    Props to Jer at Sleepy Hollow for stepping up with the 2T nationals! Now lets have other tracks follow suit and run a 2T series!

    Beyond this the AMA can have the 4 stroke stuff for those who like that and we can have our own backyard to do what we like to do!

    There will always be 2 strokes in my world…

  141. It is pretty simple, 2 stroke can handle sustained high-rpm’s period. Four strokes will grenade it is inevitable, in this economy no one is buying the fragile, nascar style bikes. They are all cookie cutter, TALL, high center of gravity and OBNOXIOUSLY LOUD. The resale is about pitiful at best, no one is going to by one to put money in them.

    The sport went from a entry level with 2T bikes, to now $8,000+ fragile bikes with no resale. People cannot sell them due to the reputation of failure and expensive parts.

    If people stop buying the 4T bikes, it appears the sabbatical is waning they will not continue to produce them. In this economy they are about as marketable as the guy sitting in the white house telling everyone the economy is great.

  142. I am new to Dirtbikes 30 years old and bought a 4stroke ktm400 as my first bike. My roomate an old school rider tried to talk me out of it but I got a good deal on the bike. I keep hearing the argument about displacement issues and handicapping 2strokes. I may not be an expert dirbiker but it seems to me the base technology drives the rules. In a 4stroke engine the piston goes up and down twice in the cylinder to create power, and in a 2 stroke it goes up and down once……. stop me if im wrong. 450 4-stroke vs 250 2stroke just seems to make sense to me. In a straight cc to cc race of course the 2 stroke wins. But there are drawbacks to every arguement polution for one. In a four stroke engine the valves allow air and fuel into thre cylindr in a metered ratio and then burn that mixture, exhaust it thru another set of valves. far cleaner far less unburnt fuel and no burned or unburned oil. In a two stroke the piston moves down and draws in new air while the exhaust port is still open allowing SOME unburnt fuel and oil and air thru the exhaust(more polution). I understand the arguments of conspiracy that the big 4 wants more money who dosent? I can not believe that in this crazy tree hugging greenpeace driven world there has not been a huge crackdown on these engines. Maybee the big 4 fell to pressure from emision laws? Or emisions laws that they thought were comming. Don’t get me wrong I rode my first 2-stroke recently and will be trading in my 4stroke asap. As for the competition I think a 2 stroke is faster given the right conditions. Gncc racing has the same 450-250 class rules and Charlie Mullins on his 250ktm 2STROKE!!! just took the championship in this national off-road racing circuit. I feel that given the perfectly manicured tracks on the supercross circuits the conditions just lend to a 4-stroke bike with a smoother power delivery with less time in the gearbox. I also understand the tempermental nature of the 4-stroke. but if you are framiliar with engine tech and how these 4stroke monsters are built you would look at the factors. These guys run far from stock components with pistons with incredibly short skirts, wide bearing tolerences, and lean mixtures to get every ounce of power out of these motors you can…… and as purpose built they are made to be rebuilt after every race, and the factory(by factory I mean the other people that buy bike) pay for it all. Have you ever watched drag racing those motors tear down the track once for 5 seconds and are torn down to the last nut and bolt every run. As Carol Shelby used to say what wins on sunday sells on monday(I’ve been a car guy my whole life) and the big 4 understand this. As 2 stroke fans I can think there is only one thing you can truly do, BUT MORE 2STROKES!!! Convince your friends and family, let 4stroke owners ride your bikes to make them realize how much lighter and aglie and explosive the power is……. Then show them your recipts from a complete rebuild (MONEY TALKS!!!!) Thats it for my little rant I’m sure there is something I forgot to put in here, but it’s two cents from someone that is new to dirtbiking, but extremley hooked………..

  143. People need to vote these environmental hypocrites out of office period.

    Oil is naturally occurring, the lie of saying it came from dinosaurs is preposterous and just stupid. It would mean the entire earth had them miles into the sky.

    It is not about pollution it is about control of how you live, how much you can eat what you can eat. If the carbon tax FARCE is passed you can kiss you freedom good bye.

    A volcano erupting puts more in the air than man has since he has been on this earth. People who buy into this green socialist energy is scarcity aka (Jimmy Carter/Oboma) are the ones making millions of dollars off selling carbon credits.

    Money talks and when you have a socialist regime in Washington people deserve it for voting for these liars.

  144. Im 17 and have owned a 4str yamaha 125, a Honda CRF230, and my current CR250. Although, 4 strokes do suck gas a bit faster and dont require oil, I would not for one second trade my bike a 4 stroke. The sound of them and the rate of acceleration is exilerating where ever u may be riding. Mine is a green sticker(woot), but I believe that they are being neglected.

  145. I fully agree… I quit going to races once the ratio on the field tilted toward flying lawnmowers. My buddy bought a 450 and has regretted it ever since. He was interested in a new exhaust after I put a Pro Circuit Platinum on my KX until he found out that it was gonna cost him a grand. I can say for certain that I will not pay to watch 4-strokes race. If a rider can’t be competitive with a bike off the showroom floor then someone is being scammed.

  146. The smell of premix was awesome and the way bikes would explode out of corners… wow. I spent a couple of years on a WR250F, rode a 250XCF some. Got to where I was tired of riding and dumping money into an old 250 4 stroke. I stopped by a KTM dealer and picked up a leftover 2009 200 XCW in December of 2009. It immediately reminded me of how much fun I had in High School on a 125 (Except now I have a butt load of low end). I still have not had to touch the motor with the exception of replacing the pipe because the stock one got smashed.

    Rekluse clutches, TCS, ABS… WTF? Pretty soon anybody can ride like a pro if they have lots of $$$. Bikes are supposed to be bare bones and essential. I can see fuel injection just like CDI makes sense and disc brakes, but that other stuff is too far.

  147. I’m 39 years old and havent rode a bike since i was 16. I recently got a pos little 125cc 4 stroke to get my feet wet and rede the trails near my house. From what I’ve readuys , you guys all love your 2 strokes and say they are more fun to ride. I was hoping someone could tell me the benefits of 2 over 4. I am completely open minded on the subject and would take any recomendations under comsideration. Here is your chance to gain another posible member to your cause..

  148. the main things are as follows

    2 strokes are lighter
    they produce more torque/power for a given capacity
    they are cheaper and quicker to repair if any problems
    they are FUN
    and lastly once you have ridden a one, you will never look back!

  149. 4 strokes aren’t that bad, i used to hate them before i got on a crf 450… that thing was an absolute BLAST to ride; the feeling of just rolling on the throttle after a sandy corner and powering on out is simply unparalleled. Don’t get me wrong I do love my ’04 cr250 but if I had disposable income i would trade it in for a 450 in a heartbeat. As for maintenance schedules, the stuff that is repeated on the site is utterly ridiculous! If you are fastidious with air filter/ oil changes and check your valve clearances regularly, then you really shouldn’t have to do a top end on a 450 for at least 100 hours, probably even more.I have known a LOT of people with 450’s and even 250’s and NOT ONE OF THEM ever blew up and engine (in fact one of my mates crf’s has had three owners, been thrashed done upwards of 150 hours and only had its valves checked four times, and is still going strong on its original piston with tons of power). In contrast, his brother’s 250sx two stroke only did 3 hours with him on it before its top end went. He got the top end done, did another 5 hours, and had the bottom end blow up on him, which fractured his brand new piston and meant he had to get a complete engine rebuild done. All in all his ’08 250sx has cost him nearly 3 grand in repairs on top of the 5500 he paid for it originally.

    You mad bro?

  150. I did not even have to read y 2 strokes are better,its simple to me,I hate the sound of 4 strokes.plain and simple.

  151. @ Lawls. Sounds like the guy on the 250SX just had bad luck or he wasn’t running a good premix oil or correct ratio. OR his mechanic sucked. For the average joe, it costs about $50/hr to run a 250F; 450F is a little more. That figure is only for engine repair. Does not include the usual mandatory maintenance.

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  153. The last mx event i went to was quest stadium, Seattle,WA in 2009; i have never seen so many people yelling “boo” among other thing at an mx event. The best part of that event imo was a CR250 taking the hole shot. Your 500 2 stroke makes comparable power to the 450f, why not let it on the track:)

  154. @Dingo.
    Yeah he did have terrible luck, and i’m not saying that everyone who buys a two stroke is going to have that happen to them, but it does show that either engine type can end up costing an arm and a leg if something goes badly wrong.

    As for the $50/hr figure, I’m sorry but from my experience that is a vast exaggeration. Most of my friends either ride 250 or 450 four stroke and the upkeep on them all is mild at best. One of my friends rides a kx 250 which has done 90 hours now on its original piston and rings, and he’s no slouch on it either.When i state these hour numbers i don’t mean that they were done puttering around the yard at 5000rpm, i mean that they were done either on a motocross track, limiter bashing, or on a tough enduro loop. Most of the guys with these bikes have been riding since they were six and they’re not the type to mollycoddle a bike. Now yes this bike probably will cost a bit to rebuild when it finally does require it; but when you factor in the fact that a similar 2 stroke would have needed at lest 2 rebuilds in this time, the overall price tends to even out. Not to mention that you’re spending a lot less money on petrol with a four stroke, which over here in Australia where petrol prices are astronomically high, is something to consider.

  155. I just dont know how people on here can say that 4 strokes are slow. Anyone who has ridden or raced one will know that there not.
    Read this.
    2T’s arent for every one, but honestly, the average rider will in actual fact be able to turn more consistant laps for longer on a 4 banger. Im not saying that their bike will be more fun to ride or more reliable, but every one has a choice.
    So, I don’t hate Four strokes,
    but i ride a two stroke, and always will.

    Support companies that keep up two stroke development,
    My next bike will be a KTM 250sx.

  156. My opinion here is perfectly simple. Ive recently bought a CRF250R 2005 model and have been told the bottom end is shagged and needs a $2700+ investment to be fixed and will need new valves every 40 hours or so. Hmmmm… ORRR I could buy an older 250 2t, have the extra power I’ve been wanting and use proper finesse and skill in riding the machine. Coming into a rut on that bike was too easy. Riding the machine full stop was too easy!!! Select your gear, brake hard, exit the rut and break your wrist dialing in the power… UHHH HELLO!?!?! would someone kindly tell me where the skill and challenge is in doing that? that took me 5 tries to master and I was hot to trot. Look at the motocross and supercross races… they never touch the clutch around a corner, they RARELY have to PROPERLY fight someone for a position because their technique is too simple and theres no complexity. Back in the day, mess up your gear selection or something and you drop atleast one position and have to wait for others to make mistakes. I believe the AMA should give 2 strokes a fighting chance in the 250F/125 class. Increase the allowed capacity to ATLEAST 170 ccs. And then have CLOSED 2 stroke classes where everyone is on the same ground. Do this and we can all have our wishes. We can ride whatever we damn well please and have fun and an equal chance at the podium everytime. Honestly, I don’t give a good god damn what type of bike you prefer. If you think that taking all the skill and challenge out of riding MX/SX is a good thing, you go right ahead and become a blood donor to try and keep up with the cost of your 4t machine. Which leads me to my second point, 2ts are so much more insanely cheaper to maintain and ride the nuts off. HOWEVER, they vary in terms of how often they need new pistons rings etc. I’ve heard people say the screamed the hell out of their 2 stroke machine for 150 hours or so and only then needed new rings and a piston. Us 2 strokers keep on throwing logic in the face of the 4 stroke fans but you’re just not listening. However I must say, the 4 stroke machines PRIOR to 2001 or so were just so reliable… I recently drained the oil out of my old 1999 XR100R and it was so disgustingly filthy I could feel the shit in it. Still ran flawlessly. Took the air filter out and it crumbled in my hands as I tried to take it off the intake piece it was that filthy!! Still ran fine… Look at the end of the day, a 4 stroke is obviously a much better machine for Enduro due to its ease of use and non tiring ride techniques. But when it comes to MX and SX, we should all ride 2 strokes… Why? because it STARTED with 2 strokes and it will end with 2 strokes. So much cheaper and so much more skill and finesse. There, thats my honest no bullshit opinion.
    I’d like to see Ryan Vilipoto stick it to Ricky Carmichael on a 250 2 stroke I really would. They both dominated the sport but theres one major difference… Go figure.


  157. Hey 2 strokers,
    Power on every 4th hit? Wimpy and gutless and that just never turned me on…old or new 4 stroke bikes. Why do you think the AMA gave them such a huge advantage? Politics and greed plus the AMA pushed for it. I think they took brides if you asked me. I ride their AMA events but do not agree with them on a lot of things like killing the 2 strokes because of their damn rules.

    I’ve been hitting the deserts of California since 1969 and riding the 2’s just made me love these motors. I rode all my buddies new 450s and just say “It’s got great torque, but I don’t like that I cannot throw it around”. Plus somebody said they are exploding time bombs, even my big friends at the top of this business admit that to me and encourage me to keep the flame burning for our 2s.

    I rode the LA to Barstow to Vegas the past 2 years and ride with ease thru all the sand washes at 40-50 MPH while huge 800 lb BMW adventure bikes were wiggling all over at 20MPH and most fell in the sand dozens of times. I never spilled it in 450 miles. Those poor dudes thinking that is what desert riding is all about. Take a 2 stroke KTM or Yamaha and install at Scotts Stabilizer, High bars to stand up and pin it baby! I was fortunate to get pissed off at the rangers when they started closing off trails in the mountains around Santa Barbara. I got my 1997 WR250 some plates. Now I ride the thing anywhere I want to ride it.

    Funny thing, when the AMA saw my bike at LABV, they said “that must be real fun to ride!” Yes it is.
    Especially since I have cool buddies that help me make it the best bike I have ever owned. Al Holley Racing (Jim’s Dad factory racer in the 90s) did a mild build with the long rod and the Boyesen RAD valve with the most current Keihin carb. About everything current is on the old WR. I would love to see them come back again because my dream bike would be a light weight 300cc with electric start and 6 speeds (like a KTM even though I want to remain a Yamaha man). I just have to keep riding my 5 speed, kick start 250 until the world wakes up again to the excitement a good running 2 stroke gives you. My buddy is working with the state of Massachusetts to see if that Ossa 280 can pass the smog emissions. If it does then we better get the word out to all the factories to jump back into the game and everyone can ride 2 strokes on the streets again.I just jump on a road to connect trails together.

    Then we all need to go after those guys at the AMA to GET REAL. The 250 class means 250 (not 144) The 450 class means 450 (not running a disadvantaged 250 2 strokes against them) Remember we all use to ride big bore 400 and 500 2 strokes and they were truly the “KING OF THE DESERTS” as any pro rider from that era will tell you or even current guys like Ty Davis. Most mortals could not handle that kind of power.
    A factory 500HCR was around 70HP whereas my buddy Dan bought the FCR with 90 HP (F meaning factory) the Kawasaki was even more powerful because it had the power valve like the 250s.
    Plus I am still riding that thing like I am 19 years old. I was just out at some extreme badland trails this past weekend with a guy who is 46 years old. We were the same speed and he was on a 400 Yamaha 4 stroke. I pulled him 5 bike lengths in the straights.
    Let’s all keep the pressure on these factories and especially on the AMA.

  158. The government is the reason we have 4 strokes – the EPA mandates certain restrictions – everything is going 4 stroke – even weedeaters.
    It’s like saying guns kill people – when it’s people who kill people.
    The promoters are as much to blame.
    Last years series was pretty exciting ———– Where were the 2 strokes?
    Just Say’n

  159. I hate hate what the bikes are turning into. Basically a big explosive computer for an engine. I would take a 2502t over a 450 any day. We need to push companies that make 2 strokes to try to get their bikes in races!

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