Two Stroke AMA Rule Change Petition

Just a quick note from TSM.com

Some things in life need to happen, the AMA rule change is one of them.

It’s just a rule, who does it really hurt?

I speak with people all the time, from all over the country about the situation. Everyone agrees, the rule change would breathe life back into the 2 strokes and the sport of Motocross.

 A lot of great local riders that can’t afford to race the 4 strokes would be back on the tracks, and supporting the sport!

A lot of tracks and riding area’s have been closed due to the 4 stroke noise.

No Good.

Without the rule change Proffesional Motocross will suffer.

Regardless of engine, they are still MX bikes on the track.  That is still exciting to watch, right? Sure, exciting like.. Lawn Mower racing.

Let’s get Motocross back the way the way it should be!

Sign the Petition, and tell everyone to do the same!

http://www.gopetition.com/petitions/review-ama-pro-racing-rule-change.html

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48 thoughts on “Two Stroke AMA Rule Change Petition

  1. As consumers we can send a message in addition to signing this petition by not buying and supporting expensive 4 stroke machines. Producers will respond to the loss of profits and again offer more choices to the market by offering 2 strokes as demanded. In this case demand for 2 strokes will trump unwanted supply of 4 strokes.

    Why are we allowing the AMA and producers to make our choices in machines for us? This makes no rational sense; support producers who offer the most choices to the consumer which include a fully supported line of 2 strokes.

  2. Your idea is great and if followed could make the Japs listen, but why do you need to go that hassle, when you have perfectly good Euro machines ready to roll out your dealers, you should be purchasing a Euro rather than not buying a bike at all, after all we should be supporting the guys who make stuff we want to ride NOW !

    Alos I see the petition as a mistake. WHY ? A super trick 144 cannot hang with a National spec 250f. A 2st runner would need at least 175cc to even get near a like for like rider on a 250f. Trust me we’ve seen it 1st hand, sorry lads but a 144 just wont cut it, so dont settle for ‘make do’ we need equal dissplacements, nothing else.

  3. I agree there are several great companies offering fresh two strokes.

    As for the petition being a mistake, it is not. More than likely the AMA won’t pass an equal displacement rule, we know what would happen.
    A 144/300 rule would be more than enough to compete with the thumpers, at least it would keep the heart and soul of Motocross still in the game.

  4. Whether us 2-stroke fans agree with the 144/250 & 300/450 rule or not I really think signing the petition is a must!Yes equal displacement is what we all would love to have but anyone out there that loves the 2-stroke should understand that we have to start somewhere & I truly believe by signing the petition as well as getting everybody we know that loves 2-stroke MX bikes to sign also that we would be making quite a statement to the AMA as well as the manufacturers that we not only want a rule change but that we are demanding a rule change! In a way we would be letting the powers that be know what we the consumers & future MX/SX racers want which is a fighting chance against the very unfair & current displacement rules!

  5. One more thing I would like to say is I have to respectfully disagree with the comment that 125mx.com said about “a super trick 144 cannot hang with a National spec 250f”.I recall one of Jeremy McGraths last races on his Honda CR-250R 2-stroke when he came in 7th place amongst a track full of 450f’s with a 200cc advantage so my question is why can’t a 144cc 2-stroke hang with a 250f that only has a 106cc advantage?My answer to that question would be that a tricked out 144cc stroker could hang with a National spec 250f with the right rider if given the chance.

  6. I’m talking like for like rider, there’s always exceptions to the rule agreed. A trick 125 is going to deliver near as dammit the same as a 144, the 144 may have more mid, but the 125 more top and overrev OK.
    If these bikes can be ridden by most riders that fast why are there not any 125’s in the Lites or world GP’s then ? I’m a 2st fan and have worked hard here in the UK keeping our bikes alive and kicking, in fact we now have 4 seperate National 2st Championships, and that was from nothing at all. I have also spent quite some time and money with 125’s and top riders, we have had test after test, and rider after rider trying to match the 250f, but unless the 125 pilot is a class above those he’s racing he just cant hang lap for lap with the ‘f’. I have tried exotic bits of kit like 152 kits etc, we still get smoked as soon as the surface dries up, sand is where we stand a chance though. I even have a very nice sx200 motor in a late sxf250 chassis, and this is a near perfect match, but the sx200 still has to get every exit perfect, and nail every part of the track 100%, then quite sadly the test rider jumped on the borrowed 250f and was 3 seconds a lap faster. I gave up trying to compete against the bigger capacity bikes and concentrated on giving the 125 a place to race seperate from anything else.

    IMO the 144 rule will bring attention to the cause, but it wont give our riders the ammunition they need, then when results dont show the 144 as effective they will say ‘look the 2st just can cut it even with the extra capacity’ You would be far better off generating a fresh new 125cc class and let the circus carry on.

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  7. Sorry for the spelling as I was in a rush, the correct wording is below as I missed the ‘T’ from cant

    IMO the 144 rule will bring attention to the cause, but it wont give our riders the ammunition they need, then when results dont show the 144 as effective they will say ‘look the 2st just cant cut it even with the extra capacity’ You would be far better off generating a fresh new 125cc class and let the circus carry on.

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    ps: Is there a way to edit your own post ?

  8. I have to disagree with 125mx.
    I have seen test reviews comparing a stock 144 with a stock 250f. In every case the 144 was either even with the 250f or faster. Keep in mind this is a 144 with the same porting as a 125. A correct porting will boost power, especially if it is a machined porting/polishing.
    A 144 already matches a 250f in peak power, what it needs mainly is mid range to keep up. Combined with the weight advantage, nearly 20 lbs, then the 2-stroke rider has the advantage.

    As for 300/450, a stock 300, tuned for enduro, makes more power than a 450. Imagine a MX ported 300.

    Like other people have said, equal displacement would be the most fair, but the AMA & Manufacturers would never let it happen. But 144/300 definitely has a chance, and they will be more than competitive.

  9. I’ve never seen a stock 144 with the same porting as a 125, KTM’s 150 (144cc)bike has different spec. I’m a 125 freak and have spent a lot of time with them and will tell you as I’ve seen it. Theres no way a 144 could run with the 250f, if you have a guy that can ride a 144 and is ripping up he’s class, that same rider will normally go even better on a 250f.I have seen 250 2sts get whooped by the ‘f’ as well. Even if there were a 250cc class do you think it would be won by the humble 2sts ? Even a equal class would not swing all victories back to the 2sts, the bikes are so close its scary and the useability the ‘f’ would still put it right up there, thats why I say it needs to be ‘equal capacity’

  10. 125mx
    Maybe I am wrong about 150 stock porting. But still, an aftermarket porting does wonders. For the simple fact that castings leave rough surfaces.
    But again, there have been comparison tests of 150 vs 250f that has never seen the 150 lose in a race.
    A 250f is not faster, just easier to ride fast.
    150 is just lighting the fire. A 150 can win, and can be better than a 250f given the right technology, development and rider. Not everyone will be able to hop onto a 2-stroke, even of the same displacement, and go as fast. It is just the way the power hits on a 2-stroke. Even if they allowed 350 2-strokes to compete with 250f’s in the amateurs you would still see 250f’s doing good or winning.
    Displacement is one thing, but not every rider can handle the power delivery. But when talking about pros, they have the skill to ride a 150 as fast as a 250f, or a 300 as fast as a 450f.
    There will never be all 2-strokes in racing, no matter the displacement rules. Changing the rules will allow the people that can ride them, and want to ride them, be competitive.

  11. If we did get equal displacement what we would see is, riders who can ride a 2t will take advantage of the rules and absolutely destroy the competition. The AMA and manufacturers will see this and likely remove the rule change. Then we are stuck with 125 vs 250f and 250 vs 450f. Not good.

    To give 2-strokes such an advantage will backfire. What we need is performance equality or a slight advantage. And that is what this petition gives. It allows 2-strokes to be better than 4-strokes in the majority of situations and lets 4-strokes remain competitive and better in some.
    This allows 2-strokes to enter the sport and be competitive and allows the average guy to pick which bike to ride. We now have choices. You may even see teams using 2-strokes for some races and 4-strokes for others. Exactly what the sport needs. Competition, choices, variety.

  12. If we did get equal displacement what we would see is, riders who can ride a 2t will take advantage of the rules and absolutely destroy the competition. The AMA and manufacturers will see this and likely remove the rule change. Then we are stuck with 125 vs 250f and 250 vs 450f. Not good.

    To give 2-strokes such an advantage will backfire. What we need is performance equality or a slight advantage. And that is what this petition gives. It allows 2-strokes to be better than 4-strokes in the majority of situations and lets 4-strokes remain competitive and better in some.
    This allows 2-strokes to enter the sport and be competitive and allows the average guy to pick which bike to ride. We now have choices. You may even see teams using 2-strokes for some races and 4-strokes for others. Exactly what the sport needs. Competition, choices, variety.

    ===========================
    .
    I agree 100% with 125 mx – we’ve seen that in Australia they have changed the rule to allow equal displacement and the 4 strokes are not getting smoked, its actually created a level playing field as each bike has bennefits and disadvantages depending on the terrain and rider etc. Also the Red Bull Pro Nationals in the UK have equal displacement and its the same story here. It should be simple – 125cc 2 and 4 stroke / 250cc 2 and 4 stroke and open class, thats what we do here in UK Red Bull Pro Nationals

  13. I have a shop at a mx track in maine mx207. The rider count has been going down the last 2 seasons. Being a mechanic i can’t tell you how many people that have had motors blow up at the track and i give them a price and they can’t afford to fix it the 4 stroke is usually over 2 grand for a hard motor lock up. Now for 2011 mx207 is having a 125cc two stroke class only and i have talked to alot of kids that can’t afford a 4 stroke but can get a two stroke 125 and keep it running all season they want to get into racing. If they do the rule change you will see motocross start to grow again and there will be two strokes in the gate at pro events. I was at mx207 when decotis was filmed for the 125 video and i have not seen that much excitment at a track in a long time. Two strokes will bring back excitment in the sport of motocross it was lost with the 4 stroke money making machine. They even have changed the tracks to cater to 4 strokes.Look up old videos of the pro races right before 4 strokes where forced on us its fun and exciting to watch. I think ktm is going to take the market in 2011 & 2012 and i would not be surprised if the other companys see that and release 2 stroke in the us again time will tell.

  14. I also agree with 125mx. I love two strokes. I own both and can tell you that riding the 4 stroke is boring. yet I am faster on it (because of my lack of skills and fitness). But as my friend who used to be a pro once told me: it’s not about the bike, mostly it’s about the rider. Cedric Soubeyrnas is my hero in the GP riding the 2stroke 250 against the 450 4strokes and he finishes usualy somewhere around 14th places out of 40 professional riders. But the top 3-5 riders in the 250f(MX2)run better lap times. And they are not better riders.
    The problem is that even KTM who is very much into our beloved 2strokes are not putting up a factory bikes/teams. They all do just 4strokes. So, what pro rider would choose to ride a 144cc 2stroke of non factory bike of old technology instead of fuly loaded 250f factory bike with custom frame and suspension worth of 50k’s ? You all know the answer. if the top pro riders would get fully updated factory 2strokes of same displacement, then they would probably be winning, but not always. We need equal displacement to bring 2strokes back where they belong.

  15. Rocket Ron (125mx.com) is dead on his comments and he knows what he talking about. Plus having real world experience to back his worlds. Those who don’t know, he runs 125 team in Britain and single handedly started two stroke racing there.
    Grass roots start is the only way up. Start local 125 and two stroke classes and work that way up.

  16. MX125 I think my comment may have been misunderstood….we should only purchase 2 stroke machines from the companies who currently make them and support them i.e. KTM, TM and other Euros. Yamaha’s YZ 250 is also a good choice.

    The ideas I was trying to convey are sign the petition to send a message to the AMA and only use our hard earned dollars to by 2 strokes which sends a message to the producers as well. Buying is your vote in the market place and the producers will respond to selling the machines that make them the most profits. So if 4 strokes aren’t selling and 2 strokes are…..they will respond and invest in 2 stroke technologies.

  17. I encourage people not to sign this petition. I see a grand total of zero two-strokes in AMA SX if these rules are adopted. Four strokes have had decades of development that will not be overcome by allowing 150’s to race against 250’s. The rules should have 125cc and 250cc in SX and 125cc, 250cc, and 500cc in MX.

    These rules will be better for the spectators. They will be able to tell from the sound which class in on the track and the sound will be much more exciting than the current burps and chugs.

    Britain and Australia have already gone to equal displacement and we should not settle for anything less.

    Kids need to see their heroes ride bikes that they can afford to ride. 250F’s are the most expensive bikes to race in the history of MX. It is a terrible choice for fathers to make after their kid outgrows their 85, do we put Junior into soccer or baseball because we cannot afford to competitively race a 250F.

    I’m glad the AMA has finally addressed the noise issue but for many tracks, it is too late. The four-stroke mistake is personal for me as I had a track at the Los Angeles County Fairgrounds that was shut down because the four-strokes made too much noise.

    Let’s change the rules the right way.

  18. equal displacement will not work. the guys running 2 strokes in australia are good but they are not the main contenders. they are privateers working during the week and racing on weekends.

    what has to be remembered is that the bikes they are riding are 5 years old in design and still competetive, if manufacturers starting investing in 2 strokes again and developing them i have no doubt that within a few years they would be destroying the four strokes.

    what we need is two strokes with a displacement that can match the four stroke in terms of power and then development put into the chassis and suspension. scrap the 144 and make a 150/155 and a 300, they should produce enough torque and power and then tune the chassis and suspension so that they handle the engine characteristics better and make 2 strokes competetive again

  19. Chump, your wrong my friend. Please read my posts above !

    We have some rather trick 250 2sts and infact some 265 kitted 2sts that can run with trick 250f’s. Not beat or destroy, ‘but run with’ An equal 250cc class would be brilliantly entertaining with no clear cut winner.Then the smallbore 125cc class can be re-established as children need it as a step from the 85cc bikes. Even adult riders want 125’s as there always the first line ups to get entered in race events

  20. Quote:By 2STROKEREVOLUTION on December 5th, 2010 at 3:57 pm

    If we did get equal displacement what we would see is, riders who can ride a 2t will take advantage of the rules and absolutely destroy the competition. The AMA and manufacturers will see this and likely remove the rule change. Then we are stuck with 125 vs 250f and 250 vs 450f. Not good.

    To give 2-strokes such an advantage will backfire. What we need is performance equality or a slight advantage. And that is what this petition gives. It allows 2-strokes to be better than 4-strokes in the majority of situations and lets 4-strokes remain competitive and better in some.
    This allows 2-strokes to enter the sport and be competitive and allows the average guy to pick which bike to ride. We now have choices. You may even see teams using 2-strokes for some races and 4-strokes for others. Exactly what the sport needs. Competition, choices, variety.

    I really dont know where to start my reply ?

    To your first sentance: So its OK for a rider who ‘cant’ ride a 2st jump on a 250f and ‘destroy’ the competition ?

    Second sentance: Such an advantage ? You mean ‘EQUAL’ capacity !

    Please please understand, I’ve done plenty of 125/144 testing/racing. They just dont stand a chance against a 250f, thats why there are no 2sts racing lites or GP’s. I have a sx200 thats delivering a very nice bhp figures and that can put up a show at sand tracks, slick or hardpack forget it. So if you think 19cc is the magic figure that brings 2st & 4st performance together, your wrong.

    An equal 250cc class would genuinley deliver some great racing, with no clear cut winner either, and then the 125’s can have their class back !

  21. the engines may be trick on those 2T’s but the chassis and suspension design is still 5 or so years old. these bikes may have all the after market trick bits on them but its old designs. if the development went into making the 2T’s put their power to the ground like the 4T’s do then i dont see a 4T having any chance. that is the one area a 2 stroke lacks in and if manufacturers could improve there then 2 stroke would dominate.

    i could be totally wrong here but as an example the last 125 i rode was a 2001 kx. it was brand new, raced it for one season, had the suspension sorted for my weight and all that. just recently i bought my wife an 05 RM 125 and the way that bike feels and rides is so much better, in those 4 years there were some big improvements and i am just speculating that if that development were applied today that 2 strokes would reign supreme

  22. @125mx

    Let’s sort some things out.

    I wioll start with an easy one. “Only 19cc”. Now, a 125 makes about 30hp stock? That extra 19cc would add 4.6hp. That is considering 10 year old engine design. A new 125 should make closer to 35hp, meaning that 19cc will add 5.3hp, that is a total of 40hp, well more than a 250f. Combine that with a bike that weighs nearly 30lbs less.
    But you still think you need a 250 to beat a 250f? And even then it is not a big advantage? A 250f makes about 35hp and weighs ~225lbs. A 250 2t makes 50hp and weighs 212lbs. Are you saying that isn’t an advantage? Both 15hp more and carrying 13lbs less isn’t an advantage and is barely competitive?

    And again that is comparing old 2t tech. Look at then new Maicos. A 250 from them makes closer to 55hp.

  23. @125mx
    “To your first sentance: So its OK for a rider who ‘cant’ ride a 2st jump on a 250f and ‘destroy’ the competition ?”

    I am not saying it is ok for a rider to jump on a 250f and destroy the competition. If the rules are fair that won’t happen. But no matter what the displacement is, some riders will be more suited to a 4-stroke while some will be more suited to a 2-stroke. So if the rules are set so that they are both competitive then we can see a healthy mix.

    The only problem is the factory riders. I bet that even with equal displacement factories are going to use 4-strokes. And as long as the sheep see this they will buy 4-strokes. A factory rider could win on a 2-stroke. Justin Barcia on a 125 is madness, but Honda won’t let him ride one. But we know he would do just as good on a 125 as his 250f.

  24. Quote:By 2STROKEREVOLUTION on December 9th, 2010 at 12:01 pm

    @125mx

    Let’s sort some things out.

    I wioll start with an easy one. “Only 19cc”. Now, a 125 makes about 30hp stock? That extra 19cc would add 4.6hp. That is considering 10 year old engine design. A new 125 should make closer to 35hp, meaning that 19cc will add 5.3hp, that is a total of 40hp, well more than a 250f. Combine that with a bike that weighs nearly 30lbs less.
    But you still think you need a 250 to beat a 250f? And even then it is not a big advantage? A 250f makes about 35hp and weighs ~225lbs. A 250 2t makes 50hp and weighs 212lbs. Are you saying that isn’t an advantage? Both 15hp more and carrying 13lbs less isn’t an advantage and is barely competitive?

    And again that is comparing old 2t tech. Look at then new Maicos. A 250 from them makes closer to 55hp.

    Well:
    I do agree with you, that on paper it looks good, and the 2st reads well. But unfortunatley racing does’nt rely on BHP. Take a look at what drives that bike, the torque figures ! (As there probably more important) Also forget the 10 year old 2st therory as we have current or new SXS & SX machines, bang upto date stuff ! Now also dont forget that most of the ‘lites’ racers are not on anything thats close to stock motors. And most must have mortgages in their motors and also more often that not, the lites set faster laptimes than the mx1 class, or pretty damm close.

    I have a good friend who tests bikes for one of our National magazines, he has recently come back from Italy after testing the Factory KTM’s and he could not believe how good they were, esspecially Musquins 250f, he said its the best bike he’s ever ridden and could not believe it was a 250 ? It was so strong and so fast he ripped up the place. Now I know thats factory but this rider knows what’s what, well he is the National 125cc Champ and Former open class 2st Champ. He rides rinaldi 125’s and some rather trick 250 yz’s so can qualify to give good feedback.

    I truly wish it was that easy, 2mm oversize and go kick ass, but in practice it just wont work, tried it got the tee shirts. One thing that ‘f’ will do is delivery great big gobs of drive effortlessly and be so user friendly. Just as an insight we had an ‘open’ 250cc class here at the Redbull Nationals with a fair mixture of 2 and 4st 250’s, the racing was great with each bike showing its benefits and pitfalls, there was always a mix of machines up front and no one machine stood out as the one to have.

    How much fairer can we get it ?

    I know, seperate 2st and 4st machines so there’s no need to manipulate capacities ? Sound good, well thats whats happening here as more and more 2st riders enter all our 2st series

  25. @125mx

    I understand what you are saying. But here is what I have seen.
    Stock vs Stock, a 150 is 100% competitive with a 250f. I have seen a few tests. Either they were even, or the 150 was barely faster. So I can’t imagine why it would be any different on modded bikes or full factory bikes. Especially when you consider that those testers have spent the majority of time on 4-strokes in the past decade and aren’t as used to the 2t.

    “Also forget the 10 year old 2st therory as we have current or new SXS & SX machines, bang upto date stuff”

    A highly modded, new bike, is still running old technology. They may be far from stock but they are based on engine tech that hasn’t been vastly updated like the 4-strokes have in the past 10 years. They have received updates, but are essentially the same engine.

    While separating 2 and 4 strokes makes it “fair” it won’t benefit me. I don’t race, nor do I care what/who wins the MX races. What I want is for 2-strokes to receive the R&D that they deserve. I ride for fun in the desert, mountains, and a tiny bit of track, so I want a bike that is fast, fun, reliable, efficient, and easy enough to ride. At the moment the perfect bike doesn’t exist. The KTM 300 is the closest but it misses efficiency. My XR250 is good, but too heavy and not enough power.

  26. Here is what it comes down to for me.

    I would LOVE to see a 150 class, 250 class, and Open class. Fair racing, lets the best tech win with no handicap, and there are choices. But I doubt the AMA or manufacturers would ever allow such a thing to happen.

    Splitting off into the 2-stroke championships are good for 2t MX riders(don’t know if they allow equal displacement 4t’s but they should), but I don’t think the AMA, major magazines, or manufacturers are going to take much notice. Therefore they won’t give 2t’s the updates they deserve and that I want.

    So for me the best that I see is 150/250f and 300/450f classes. It isn’t ideal, but the AMA and manufacturers might do it. If they do it gives 2t’s just enough to be competitive, at least at a lot of tracks. People enter the pros on 2t’s and the manufacturers see this and update their 2t bikes.

    I agree that equal displacement would be best, but I just feel it wouldn’t happen and they can still be competitive without it.

  27. Also, proof that we don’t need equal displacement to win.
    Enduro is essentially open class racing. This is where we see 300 vs 450f all the time. Sometimes even against 525cc+ 4-strokes. The 300s are still the bike to be on. Even in the slippery conditions where 2-strokes are weaker.

  28. 150/250f and 300/450f classes will not lead to any new development for two-strokes. The factories will not spend the big bucks unless there is an advantage to them. It took awhile for them to build a 250f after the rule was made.

    Back when there was a 500cc GP class, KTM could not get a 2-stroke that could compete against the 500ccc 4-strokes. A factory 250f will smoke a 150. If equal displacement leads to the demise of the 250f, I say good riddance. They are too expensive to competitively race.

    Perhaps the Japanese factories would oppose an equal displacement rule but the track promoters and the mini dads would be behind it.

  29. I can understand what K9 says.
    I guess what it comes down to is we are screwed as far as 2t development goes.
    The only way for that to happen is just to have a die hard 2-stroke brand that wants to develop them because they love them and know the potential.
    That is where the consumer comes in. We must support the 2-stroke brands. So, buy KTM and Maico. Even though Yamaha still sells 2-strokes(as well as Suzuki and Kawasaki in Europe), don’t buy them. Support the brands who support the 2-stroke, and they will support us with development.

    Or just give me 5-10 years to design one.

    Although I am confused by K9’s comment on the 500cc GPs. I thought they were all 2-strokes. And of course a factory 250f will smoke a stock 150. But stock vs stock the 150 has won.

  30. From Europe:
    Only Yamaha sells japanese >85cc bikes in 2011.
    Honda last 125/250 2007
    Kawasaki last 125/250 2008
    Suzuki last 125/250 2010

    One team in FIM MX1 run KTM 250sx 2t. Martens and Soubeyras ride and they was around 15-20th overall.

  31. While perusing an old VHS tape, I came across coverage of the 1998 or 99 opening round of the AMA outdoor series national at Glen Helen. Back then,the Yamaha 4st was about 400cc. Sebastian Tortelli blew right past Jimmy Button and his 4st. Since the overall set-ups were probably similar back then, I think this shows a 2st could be competitive against a 4st if the CC discrepency wasn’t so large and modern frame and suspension technology was applied to the 2st.

    I guess it’s wishful thinking that the ruling powers would LOWER the displacement capicity of the 4st’s.

  32. I don’t want to get into the argument on how the rule should be changed. I think we can all agree though that the rule NEEDS to be changed. I think by correcting the rule, you could ‘tweek’ it every few years to keep everyone happy. One thing though, MX tracks were CHANGED in favor of the 4-stroke. Future 2-stroke riders will have to face that no matter how the advantage swings.

    “If I were king”, I wouldn’t make just one change, I would make several small changes:

    1. Change the “Production Rule” to 500 examples. This would allow smaller companies to enter AMA professional motocross (i.e. Maico, Ossa, Husqvarna…).
    2. Institute and enforce a 97 db limit – and lower it every 3 to 5 years
    3. Institute and enforce an emissions limit – and lower it every 3 to 5 years
    4. Institute equal displacement regardless of engine type
    5. Encourage alternative fuels with equivalency formulas
    6. Bring back the Open Class as the premier class.

  33. Oh and some good news. We just finished hammering out our new rules for 2011 for our local MX and Off-Road series. “No handicaps for 4-strokes! Equal displacement for all!”

  34. Dunno if this is old news or not but i read it in this months adb mag and in Australia next year in the National motocross series 2 strokes 255-450cc will be racing against the 350/450 four strokes. the 250 two strokes already run with the 250 4T’s.

    will be interesting to see if anyone breaks out a bored out 250 or 300 for the series

  35. chump6784 is this for real?! that would be freaking awesome! i would die to see some big bore 2 strokes giving hell to the 4 strokes, i am no hater of the 4 strokes its just i know a fair few people who just talk crap about what i ride who barely even ride or have knowledge about how how to ride, body positioning etc, thinking their 450 is so superior and talking trash about my yz250 when they know a small amount about how both engines work or why the 450 has a 200cc advantage and they deny it when i tell them cc for cc a 2 stroke has more Hp, torque, better power to weight ratio than a 4 stroke…”ewww it sounds like a chansawww…..”, they are just so brainwashed into thinking because everyone else has one they must ride one. I ride with guys who are top knotch riders that ride 4 strokes and they know a 2 stroke can hold its own against a 4 stroke and it takes a fair amount of skill to pilot a 2 banger. Well enough of my ranting and raving haha

  36. I have petitioned in Canada through the CMRC and the PMA for a rule change for the creation of a displacemnet class and an open class. This was shot down for the 3rd year in a row but every year there is more support for this rule change. IT WILL HAPPEN.

  37. Also as a claimed “smoker for life” I could not pass up the opportunity to sell my smoker for a grand less than what I paid for it when i bought it new in the spring of 2010 for the outdoor season. So the Canadian winter rolls around and i have no bike for the West Coast Arenacross series so I went out and jumped on the thumper bandwagon and purchased a new 2010 yammy 450 and do my dismay and expectation it totally took the wind out of my sails and fun out of my riding. I hate it. With 2 more rounds to go in the West Coast AX series, I have ligned up several guys who want it as i am dumping it for cheap since i got it for cheap. The only reason i did it was to say i had one and to see what the fuss was all about. And guess what? I’m goin back to a smoker for the 2011 outdoor season. I won a couple junior championships and holeshotted quite a few moto’s vs the big 450’s and don’t mind being teased and considered the “underdog”. In fact i like it because they all know i am a better rider for it. With the advancement to the intermediate class for 2011 i will have to work that much harder to get the same results as those lazy gay thumper pilots.

  38. We could learn from a little history:
    In the 70’s, 80’s, and 90’s, 4 stroke technology was limited. They were always relegated to Open class racers or, just a novelty. Even though most who rode them appreciated the tractable power delivery. Problem was – they would never compete cc for cc to the 2 strokes, especially in any form of off-road racing where there were cc limitations. I believe that’s still applicable today.
    In that same time frame, the GP road racers, overwhelmingly 2strokes, were battling with power delivery. These bikes demanded only a top level pro to even ride them, and even then, their power capabilities were beyond what mere mortals could handle. Their solution – big bang motors – which delivered power similar to a 4 stroke and allowed for a smooth tractable power delivery. This also lead the way for the new GP 4 strokes which I believe are unanimous today.
    Again at the same time, the SS road racing circuit was battling another, but relevant dilemma. 4 stroke twins vs 4 stroke in-line 4’s. The twins were given nearly double displacement to compete at the same level because of their power delivery. The relevance here, was that the twins were reigned in every year, as far as cc’s, because their technology brought them to an unfair advantage – and again no one version was winning consistently.
    Now lets bring in the “Green” government mandate – that by a certain date all machines will be subject to strict emissions output. Which my friends – is the terminal pill that 2 strokes (at least in their current form) are forced to swallow.
    And which clearly puts us at the doorstep of the burgeoning 4 stroke development.
    The above examples illustrate the problems and solutions this petition addresses.
    The 4 strokes deliver far better traction in most situations, and are easier to ride fast at any level because of their innate power characteristics. But they also need cc advantages to develop like peak power. Add to that the class evenness we’re trying to establish while comparing apples to oranges.
    Like CC’s are a poor barometer for competitive fairness – that’s a given. Also peak output is of no consequence because of different power deliveries. I believe there is however a workable solution. I’m proposing a 2/3rds rule where any class which consists of 2 and 4 strokes, limit the 2 stroke cc’s to 2/3rds the 4 stroke cc’s. For example, a 250 cc class that allows for 250cc 2st, and 380cc 4 st, or a 125 cc class that allows for a 125cc 2st and a 190 4st. Or vise versa, a 250 (lites) class that has 250 4st and 165 2 st. (multiply or divide by .66 to get your variation).
    I use this as a baseline, and only a baseline, because as was illustrated earlier, the rules will change as technology and or competitive fairness dictates.
    But I think this would be a fair solution to this problem and much more fair then the current huge gaps in cc’s today. Now the tough part, getting the sanctioning bodies, organizations, and more importantly the manufacturers to adopt this philosophy when the 2 strokes end may be looming.
    A major hurdle I see instantly, are the slew of machines that will become obsolete because they will not have a class to compete in.
    FWIW, I just bought a 2011 KTM 250 XC to race District 14 Hare Scrambles.
    I’m a 2 stroke believer!

  39. 2T rules, Period. Buds, Please don’t just mention the price advantage of the 2T. That is just an simple one. Here are more important advantages. 1- Lighter, That’s a lot lighter. This alone makes the bike a lot safer to ride. Less weight means less impact = Less risk of breaking a bone or your neck if the bike lands on you. 2- Easier to repair and maintain. 3- Cheaper to repair and maintain. 4- Runs cooler, Which also makes the bike safer with less chance to get sever burns. 4- More hp per cc. 5- Higher ground clearance without making the bike too tall. 6- Smaller engine and cases means less chance to damage it, If not mentioning a bit of safety here too ( Have you ever got your feet stocked under the engine case ? Every inch counts ). 7- Noise. 8- Less engine drag and brake. 9- Easier to start. 10- Less parts to think and worry about. And more. To only mention about price advantages makes 2T like the lower level and class machine, Which It’s absolutely the opposite. About the petition, I will sign it since I don’t have any other choices right now. But, I too believe in the equal displacement. Why shouldn’t it be ? If the AMA and the manufacturers believe 4T’s are superior, Then let’s have an fair and equal battle. Have the gladiators in the same armored and sword, Not taking the sword from one or give one a little knife ! And claim victory.

  40. 2T just needs one direct injection line with 125 and 250. With that, it will outclass 4t and the japs have no choice but following, because current 4t would not stand a chance against ligter bikes with more torque and horsepower.

    A smaller player like KTM could do the trick. With an Aprilla Ditech licence, I think the bikes could be ready for 2012.

    In the meantime, I enjoy a CR500AF. That also outclasses my CRF450 with weight, power and torque, only it is not allowed to run MX1. But in mixed events like beach cross I just start a few lines back with the CR500AF. Easy enough to make up as soon as we roll away, because I got more top speed in the coastline parts. And its CRF frame will handle better then it would in a CRF, because the CR500AF is as ligt as a 250 2t and the engine weight is very low in the frame.

  41. These people who make the rules of banning the 2 stroke motorcycles are just doing it for business. Two Strokes motorcycle are far more durable than the four strokes. So the four strokes motorcycle break more often than two strokes and thus giving these manufacturers more spare parts production and better business. I dont believe that they are for anti-airpollution because if their talking about sulfur emmision from these two stroke motorcycle then they might look at first the trains and the ships at port. The ships at port use tons of High Sulfur fuel everyday compared to motorcycles. Oil manufacturers can produce a low-sulfur engine oil specially for two stroke motorcycle engines like what other countries in europe are requiring ships to use when they visit europe but what will it do the the motorcycling industry when two stroke dominate the world, because of the durability of two stroke engines there will be less production of spareparts that is not good to these motorcycle producers.

  42. Hello MONEY MONEY MONEY Thats what 4 strokes are all about because of the money that can be made on spares , If you strip a four stroke add up all the part numbers into prices it totals about 4 times the cost of the bike retail The four strokes are promoted by the big four because of money , they should not be allowed to dictate what you right when 2 strokes were better than 4 strokes in the 1970s they beat then on equal capacity these 250 and 450s must win because they have no competition if they just went back to 250 vs 250 , open class 450 500 2 stroke 4 stroke that would be right and fair , You could turn up to a 500 ama National or fim Grand pix on a 2 stroke & be competitive if you was good enough , These Four require a budget like NASA to run them competitively and what about a practice bike so you need two of these 4 strokes lumps of rubbish and you would be almost bankrupt after a year racing , No i stopped racing when i stopped being able to afford it , The top ama or grand prix riders dont care if they are sitting on a magnesium titatium berrilium works bike that you could never afford , By the way James Stweart beat the 250fs on his Kx125 at a ama national race so it shows what would happen with him on a 250 2t and thats what they dont want , Shame on the ama for allowing this perverse situation to arise .

  43. We simply need a four stroke super cross and motocross competition and a separate two stroke supercross and motocross competition run at mutual races or within a short distance of time, probably combined would be the best separate moto’s but same venues .Should try separate first and see how it goes . Come on AMA and Factories test the market ,you want money so much why not double the opportunity to follow racing ,buying bikes, yer profit and really get this sport spinning out of control in a good way ;).Works for football ,look at the football longerie girls that sport is getting bigger and bigger . We need a Two stroke championship and a Four stroke championship simple as that . LETS DO IT !!!!

  44. Why so hung up on 144 cc ?
    If the 150 / 300 rule were to be passed
    then the manufacturers would build a
    149 cc engine . A 144 is only a 125
    bored out as much as possible .

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