Comments on: Handicapping and the Four-Stroke http://twostrokemotocross.com/2010/04/handicapping-and-the-four-stroke/ The source for two stroke News, Tech and Tips. Tue, 07 Feb 2012 17:21:43 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.2.1 By: come look 2 stroke fans show the 4 strokes where its at we dont need a handicap - Yamaha Blaster Forum http://twostrokemotocross.com/2010/04/handicapping-and-the-four-stroke/comment-page-1/#comment-1437 come look 2 stroke fans show the 4 strokes where its at we dont need a handicap - Yamaha Blaster Forum Wed, 04 Aug 2010 03:15:10 +0000 http://twostrokemotocross.com/?p=3026#comment-1437 [...] look 2 stroke fans show the 4 strokes where its at we dont need a handicap Handicapping and the Four-Stroke :: Two Stroke Motocross read it all i like it it tells the truth __________________ blaster with all the mods it did [...] [...] look 2 stroke fans show the 4 strokes where its at we dont need a handicap Handicapping and the Four-Stroke :: Two Stroke Motocross read it all i like it it tells the truth __________________ blaster with all the mods it did [...]

]]> By: Who's Handicap around here? - PWCToday http://twostrokemotocross.com/2010/04/handicapping-and-the-four-stroke/comment-page-1/#comment-1013 Who's Handicap around here? - PWCToday Mon, 12 Apr 2010 15:19:16 +0000 http://twostrokemotocross.com/?p=3026#comment-1013 [...] Handicap around here? http://twostrokemotocross.com/2010/0...e-four-stroke/ I love this stuff! __________________ Slap Chop: Chop Nuts in one Slap. Back to the simple [...] [...] Handicap around here? http://twostrokemotocross.com/2010/0…e-four-stroke/ I love this stuff! __________________ Slap Chop: Chop Nuts in one Slap. Back to the simple [...]

]]> By: VintageBlueSmoke http://twostrokemotocross.com/2010/04/handicapping-and-the-four-stroke/comment-page-1/#comment-1012 VintageBlueSmoke Mon, 12 Apr 2010 13:54:56 +0000 http://twostrokemotocross.com/?p=3026#comment-1012 @MaicoMadMan, The problem is that two-strokes have to get more complicated or face extinction due to environmental issues. Although two-strokes have lower NOX emissions than a four-stroke, all the other less-damaging emissions are off the charts and the most non-damaging but visible emission, particle emmission (blue smoke)is what lay-people see and complain about. DI is part of the solution for that. Regardless, two-strokes are becoming more and more complicated in competition with on-the-fly ignition mapping et.al. anyway. We, the readers of twosmokemotocross.com, know that the EPA didn't necessarily order the manufacturers and the AMA/FIM to cut emissions but the writing is on the wall around the world. The crime committed against the public is that technology exists to adapt the two-stroke and once adapted, the two-stroke is cleaner and more efficient than the four-stroke. On another note (braaaap) did you see the two-stroke competing on the world stage in the GP's? Cedric Soubeyras of KTM Sarholz Racing. My new hero! I hope to see you in Bartow at the end of May. Kurt. @MaicoMadMan,

The problem is that two-strokes have to get more complicated or face extinction due to environmental issues. Although two-strokes have lower NOX emissions than a four-stroke, all the other less-damaging emissions are off the charts and the most non-damaging but visible emission, particle emmission (blue smoke)is what lay-people see and complain about. DI is part of the solution for that. Regardless, two-strokes are becoming more and more complicated in competition with on-the-fly ignition mapping et.al. anyway.

We, the readers of twosmokemotocross.com, know that the EPA didn’t necessarily order the manufacturers and the AMA/FIM to cut emissions but the writing is on the wall around the world. The crime committed against the public is that technology exists to adapt the two-stroke and once adapted, the two-stroke is cleaner and more efficient than the four-stroke.

On another note (braaaap) did you see the two-stroke competing on the world stage in the GP’s? Cedric Soubeyras of KTM Sarholz Racing. My new hero!

I hope to see you in Bartow at the end of May.

Kurt.

]]> By: FatBiker http://twostrokemotocross.com/2010/04/handicapping-and-the-four-stroke/comment-page-1/#comment-1011 FatBiker Sun, 11 Apr 2010 05:37:55 +0000 http://twostrokemotocross.com/?p=3026#comment-1011 Love this article! I just got back into the dirt bike game and I've always wondered why the 4 stroke bikes were given such and advantage, er, I mean handicap over the 2 strokes. What I mean is I know why, because they are such slugs cc for cc but why were they even allowed such a handicap in the first place? If you can't run with the big dogs (actually little 250 vs. 450) just change the rules!? Love this article! I just got back into the dirt bike game and I’ve always wondered why the 4 stroke bikes were given such and advantage, er, I mean handicap over the 2 strokes. What I mean is I know why, because they are such slugs cc for cc but why were they even allowed such a handicap in the first place? If you can’t run with the big dogs (actually little 250 vs. 450) just change the rules!?

]]> By: MaicoMadman http://twostrokemotocross.com/2010/04/handicapping-and-the-four-stroke/comment-page-1/#comment-1010 MaicoMadman Sun, 11 Apr 2010 01:33:41 +0000 http://twostrokemotocross.com/?p=3026#comment-1010 jrhockey03, The AMA will always support the money behind the sponsors and the Big Four. It started with Yamaha and when they won a race on a four stroke, all hell broke loose. The top racers don't care how much it cost to repair a bike. That's not their concern. Like John said earlier, If a rider does well on a 2S, their snatched up and put on a 4S. Here in Florida at the local Hare Scrambles we average about 60% 2S's. In Motocross the vast majority are 4S. The deep pockets have the displacement advantage and the money to afford the 4S. Until a 2S can out perform their unequal hadicap, the death will continue. I'm not so sure the KTM DI 300 will prove to be the best thing since sliced bread, after all it,s making a 2S even more complicated. Something the 4S's had to do in order to compete in the first place. Only time will tell, I hope I'm wrong but we'll see. MMM jrhockey03, The AMA will always support the money behind the sponsors and the Big Four. It started with Yamaha and when they won a race on a four stroke, all hell broke loose. The top racers don’t care how much it cost to repair a bike. That’s not their concern. Like John said earlier, If a rider does well on a 2S, their snatched up and put on a 4S. Here in Florida at the local Hare Scrambles we average about 60% 2S’s. In Motocross the vast majority are 4S. The deep pockets have the displacement advantage and the money to afford the 4S. Until a 2S can out perform their unequal hadicap, the death will continue. I’m not so sure the KTM DI 300 will prove to be the best thing since sliced bread, after all it,s making a 2S even more complicated. Something the 4S’s had to do in order to compete in the first place. Only time will tell, I hope I’m wrong but we’ll see.
MMM

]]> By: tommy959 http://twostrokemotocross.com/2010/04/handicapping-and-the-four-stroke/comment-page-1/#comment-1009 tommy959 Sat, 10 Apr 2010 12:41:09 +0000 http://twostrokemotocross.com/?p=3026#comment-1009 My nephew in Florida said he was going practice riding today on his new 250f, come to find out its a race day lol ! So i asked him to let me know how many 250t will be on the line..Keep you posted ! My nephew in Florida said he was going practice riding today on his new 250f, come to find out its a race day lol ! So i asked him to let me know how many 250t will be on the line..Keep you posted !

]]> By: 602MX http://twostrokemotocross.com/2010/04/handicapping-and-the-four-stroke/comment-page-1/#comment-1008 602MX Sat, 10 Apr 2010 01:27:00 +0000 http://twostrokemotocross.com/?p=3026#comment-1008 Just heard a few reports from Southwick Ma. Nesc early motocross races......... 250 2-strokes are now allowed to race head to head against the 250 4-bangers and it seems they are almost all 2-strokes the top 5 in the pro classes!....I like that news!... Just heard a few reports from Southwick Ma. Nesc early motocross races……… 250 2-strokes are now allowed to race head to head against the 250 4-bangers and it seems they are almost all 2-strokes the top 5 in the pro classes!….I like that news!…

]]> By: jrhockey03 http://twostrokemotocross.com/2010/04/handicapping-and-the-four-stroke/comment-page-1/#comment-1007 jrhockey03 Sat, 10 Apr 2010 00:56:34 +0000 http://twostrokemotocross.com/?p=3026#comment-1007 MaicoMadman, Sure the pro's have been leaving the 2-strokes behind but I've been noticing at the local tracks a lot more intermediate and junior (not sure what they would be in the States) riders are riding 2-strokes. At the Calgary national last summer the junior class had 8 of the top ten riders on 125's (The 250F finished 9th) I think the only section of the sport where 2-strokes are even with 4's is extreme enduro and Endurocross. Wait until KTM brings out DI on the 2011 300XCW, that will pave the way for the 2-stroke revolution! MUHAHAHAHAHAHA MaicoMadman, Sure the pro’s have been leaving the 2-strokes behind but I’ve been noticing at the local tracks a lot more intermediate and junior (not sure what they would be in the States) riders are riding 2-strokes. At the Calgary national last summer the junior class had 8 of the top ten riders on 125′s (The 250F finished 9th) I think the only section of the sport where 2-strokes are even with 4′s is extreme enduro and Endurocross. Wait until KTM brings out DI on the 2011 300XCW, that will pave the way for the 2-stroke revolution! MUHAHAHAHAHAHA

]]> By: johnw http://twostrokemotocross.com/2010/04/handicapping-and-the-four-stroke/comment-page-1/#comment-1006 johnw Fri, 09 Apr 2010 23:29:32 +0000 http://twostrokemotocross.com/?p=3026#comment-1006 A few months ago, I saw Malcolm Smith at his shop and took the opportunity to ask him what he thought of 4-strokes. His answer: "Oh, they're a fad.." A few months ago, I saw Malcolm Smith at his shop and took the opportunity to ask him what he thought of 4-strokes. His answer: “Oh, they’re a fad..”

]]> By: Sachsgs250 http://twostrokemotocross.com/2010/04/handicapping-and-the-four-stroke/comment-page-1/#comment-1005 Sachsgs250 Fri, 09 Apr 2010 16:34:47 +0000 http://twostrokemotocross.com/?p=3026#comment-1005 I've often wondered "precisely where does the four stroke advantage come about?".I mean,the power to weight ratios are similar and on a dragstrip they would probaly be dead even,so why the difference?I think "engine flexibility" is the answer and in the case of the fourstroke it means more traction equating to greater acceleration and easier "rideability".Where does the advantage come from? An extra 200cc displacement (I'll discount the every 4th cycle arguement to simplify things).How does one increase performance given that suspension,brakes etc. are available to both factions?Increase the power to weight ratio (remember minimum weight limits).How does this relate to a fourstroke?Fourstrokes are already at the ragged edge of reliability so not much "wiggle room" exists here (increased KTM twostroke sales are a telling clue).Two strokes at a similar output are ,relatively speaking,still quite reliable so why not increase output?Because engine flexibility is reduced and with it rideability.In the short term,and I'm thinking of "project YZ250",reduce motorcycle weight to the rule limit and,at this slightly improved power to weight ratio,increase engine flexibility (torque).How? Pipe,intake,porting,compression and ignition timing come to mind. What about the long term?DFI,based on automotive results, will yield a slight increase in output and flexibility with fourstrokes but should yield a significant increase with twostrokes.Why?,because of less exhaust scavenging cycle fuel losses.What does this mean?That in the future (and this is my own "crystal ball" opinion) DFI will increase the twostroke power to weight ratio (while maintaining rideability) to the point where it will have a distinct advantage over the fourstroke. I’ve often wondered “precisely where does the four stroke advantage come about?”.I mean,the power to weight ratios are similar and on a dragstrip they would probaly be dead even,so why the difference?I think “engine flexibility” is the answer and in the case of the fourstroke it means more traction equating to greater acceleration and easier “rideability”.Where does the advantage come from? An extra 200cc displacement (I’ll discount the every 4th cycle arguement to simplify things).How does one increase performance given that suspension,brakes etc. are available to both factions?Increase the power to weight ratio (remember minimum weight limits).How does this relate to a fourstroke?Fourstrokes are already at the ragged edge of reliability so not much “wiggle room” exists here (increased KTM twostroke sales are a telling clue).Two strokes at a similar output are ,relatively speaking,still quite reliable so why not increase output?Because engine flexibility is reduced and with it rideability.In the short term,and I’m thinking of “project YZ250″,reduce motorcycle weight to the rule limit and,at this slightly improved power to weight ratio,increase engine flexibility (torque).How? Pipe,intake,porting,compression and ignition timing come to mind.

What about the long term?DFI,based on automotive results, will yield a slight increase in output and flexibility with fourstrokes but should yield a significant increase with twostrokes.Why?,because of less exhaust scavenging cycle fuel losses.What does this mean?That in the future (and this is my own “crystal ball” opinion) DFI will increase the twostroke power to weight ratio (while maintaining rideability) to the point where it will have a distinct advantage over the fourstroke.

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