Comments on: Four-stroke manufacturing problems?

By: VintageBlueSmoke

VintageBlueSmoke — Thu, 15 Apr 2010 16:49:56 +0000

JohnNicholas makes a good point about the unfair handicap applied to 2-strokes however, I disagree that it is the only way the 4-stroke can compete equally. What should be determined is what the end result the organizers want – be it fuel economy, emissions, etc. and then make a rule for that. If, for example, you set a low fuel amount limit, the 4-stoke would be still racing while the 2-stroke riders would be pushing it to the finish (with current technology). At least that would be a FAIR handicap.

Pneumatic valves and other F1 technology such will never produce an equivelent to a 2-stroke in performance, no matter how much money you throw at it*. What makes the 4-stroke superior, especially at larger displacements but also in MX and Enduro, is the application of usable power and survivability over a race distance (or 3 in F1′s case). That is not the necessarily case in Motocross.

*Except in the case of forced injection (i.e. Turbo or Supercharging)

By: wintrader

wintrader — Thu, 15 Apr 2010 07:15:24 +0000

Other example of lower displacement beats the bigger bike (with ease).

http://motocrossactionmag.com/ME2/dirmod.asp?sid=&nm=&type=news&mod=News&mid=9A02E3B96F2A415ABC72CB5F516B4C10&tier=3&nid=D9EAB5C8F4D04319A1AB77D0D151AD48

By: wintrader

wintrader — Thu, 15 Apr 2010 06:57:14 +0000

What can i say. I think you are right. I just think i was not neccesary. 4 strokes make a relatively cheap sport expensive for nothing. For the rest difficult to say which bike is better of more honest. I think for motox 2 stroke is the way to go. For the rest i told you before it does not matter so much i think. More displacement does not always mean going round faster on a track. And i believe lots of marketing involved because i also do not believe every year bikes get better. Only facturers get better from this not the riders who think they will be faster on the latest bike. Here in europe we have special 2 shock class for 2 strokes like maico 490 and they are going very fast. Perhaps riders will be just a little faster on the latest bikes but i do not think much faster. http://www.dutchtwinshock.nl/english.html

You can decide , for instance, to allow pneumatic valves in 4 strokes and then they will be as fast or faster then 2 strokes with same displacement. But in what way do they deliver the power and will it be affordable for normal people. I guess not. So what is the use of all this? Or are we going to allow turbo’s on motox bikes. If the factories go on like this moto x will not be afforable for lots of people. Even with 2 stroke it cost a lot of money.

Will see what happens over time but as far as i can see lots of riders go back to 2 strokes.

By: JohnNicholas

JohnNicholas — Wed, 14 Apr 2010 17:41:41 +0000

wintrader – the article above is obviously someone’s opinion.. not a statement of fact.

I can understand you doubt of the two-stroke being superior to the four-stroke, but have a question. Are you comparing them at equal displacement or by the lopsided rules that currently exist in Professional racing?

Yes the four-strokes may be easier to ride, but only when they are double the displacement of the two-stroke.

The displacement disparity has created a cloud of confusion surrounding this debate. Just remember this rule was passed in the first place because no one thought that even with the displacement disparity that the four-strokes could compete… previous to this perversion of the rules motocross had always been measured by displacement.

Using equal displacement is the only “fair” way of judging which machine is best. Any other method must include a handicap for the lesser machine. In this particular case the four-stroke needs a handicap to compete.

How can you compare with a handicap? It’s impossible, because when you change the method of computing the handicap, the results change.

By: wintrader

wintrader — Wed, 14 Apr 2010 17:08:06 +0000

Already said so in the forum. Lots of 2 strokes maybe 50% or more in Europe because of high costs for the 4 strokes. But to state four strokes are dead is absolutely not true. The fastest classes are racing four strokes. But on amature level more and more 2 stroke en enduro level the same. I have my doubts about 2 strokes are superior over 4 strokes. For instance the KTM 350 looks kinda superior to me but ok i do not really know. But concerning normal people (amatures) the 2 strokes seem the be getting more popular. Look at the rules in the Neterland kids have to race 2 strokes. I do not know the rules exactly but something like that over here. Simply because of the costs and, from what i heard, better to learn on 2 strokes and later (perhaps) change to 4 strokes.

But really to state 4 strokes or dead is absolutely not true. Most of my friends switched to 2 stroke. Having talk with some topriders i know they told me 4 strokes are just easier to ride certainly when they get tired a bit.