Four-stroke manufacturing problems?

By JohnNicholas • on April 14, 2010

I found part of the following information on (http://www.thewhimsicalwagon.com/eurodirt/id248.htm) I believe that they found it on a forum someplace. The message bears reading and consideration, although at this time it has not been confirmed.

If you have additional information, please let us know.

NEWS

Info on 4 strokes…I thought some would be interested in this (edited for content – not altered)…the bottom is a shock.

I just returned from my yearly visit to the GasGas factory….saw the 4-stroke again. It’s almost done, all they have to do is to finish the final head design and figure out the mapping for the fuel injection system. Not much….however, due to the economy, which is really bad in Europe.

They have put the project on hold for the short future. IF the economy comes back, they will resume the final testing next summer and it will be a 2011 model.

Unemployment in Spain is running 23% right now….pretty incredible!  Lots of small businesses are gone, including some of the ones that made parts for the factory. They had to really work to find other sources of these parts from other business, which took awhile, which is why the bikes are late this year.

The 4-stroke bikes are dead in Europe. Too high an initial cost and also a high repair cost. Two stroke enduro and trials bikes are coming back rapidly over there.

When it comes down to comparing all the qualities of 2-stroke verses 4-stroke, the ONLY advantage the 4-stroke has (and it’s small) is better traction in slippery conditions….that’s it. The factory engineers and riders all say that the 2-stroke is far superior.

Montesa just closed their new factory just outside of Barcelona and laid off 250 workers. Guess that says something….their trials team will end after 2010.   (posted Dec. 22, 2009)

While searching for additional information about the above article, I discovered something I had not known before, that Honda owns Montesa and has since the early 1980’s. The following excerpt was found on Wikipedia;

By 1981, another round of economic unrest in Spain began to hinder motorcycle manufacturers. Strikes and a shrinking market left Montesa as the only major motorcycle concern in the country; however they were in need for a major influx of capital in order to continue to survive. A loan from the government and shares sold to Honda (to establish a European manufacturing base for their commuter bikes) helped production continue. Indeed, one of the governments stipulations was that Honda would guarantee that production would not stop. Honda was prepared to stockpile trials bikes and to sell them off at a loss in an effort to reach Europe’s more profitable market and to bypass restrictive import tariffs.

In July 1985, a major reorganization took place and a large amount of money from Honda was received. By then, only two trials models were offered and the workforce had dwindled to a mere 152 employees. A year later, there were further financial moves between Honda, Spain’s government and the Permanyer family, leading to Honda buying the majority of the family’s remaining shares. Honda now had an 85% holding and spent another $5 million on modifying and updating the factory.

Montesa was still active in World Trials competition throughout the 1980s and into the 1990s. Even though reduced to only offering one model, the Cota, such riders like former World Champion Eddy Lejeune and Andrew Codina rode the bike to good results in the mid-’80s. In 1992-93, the liquid-cooled Cota 311 was produced; this was to be the last “real” Montesa. In 1994, a new model, the 314R, was introduced. This model featured an HRC Honda powerplant with many other components from Honda. Montesa-mounted Marc Colomer won the World title in 1996 and the 315R followed in early ‘97. The 315R had a run of 7 years, taking Dougie Lampkin to many world championships, and was replaced by the technically advanced four-stroke Cota 4RT in 2005.

tmracingmotorcycles.com/models/tm-racing-2010/

Comments

By wintrader on April 14th, 2010 at 1:08 pm

Already said so in the forum. Lots of 2 strokes maybe 50% or more in Europe because of high costs for the 4 strokes. But to state four strokes are dead is absolutely not true. The fastest classes are racing four strokes. But on amature level more and more 2 stroke en enduro level the same. I have my doubts about 2 strokes are superior over 4 strokes. For instance the KTM 350 looks kinda superior to me but ok i do not really know. But concerning normal people (amatures) the 2 strokes seem the be getting more popular. Look at the rules in the Neterland kids have to race 2 strokes. I do not know the rules exactly but something like that over here. Simply because of the costs and, from what i heard, better to learn on 2 strokes and later (perhaps) change to 4 strokes.

But really to state 4 strokes or dead is absolutely not true. Most of my friends switched to 2 stroke. Having talk with some topriders i know they told me 4 strokes are just easier to ride certainly when they get tired a bit.

By JohnNicholas on April 14th, 2010 at 1:41 pm

wintrader – the article above is obviously someone’s opinion.. not a statement of fact.

I can understand you doubt of the two-stroke being superior to the four-stroke, but have a question. Are you comparing them at equal displacement or by the lopsided rules that currently exist in Professional racing?

Yes the four-strokes may be easier to ride, but only when they are double the displacement of the two-stroke.

The displacement disparity has created a cloud of confusion surrounding this debate. Just remember this rule was passed in the first place because no one thought that even with the displacement disparity that the four-strokes could compete… previous to this perversion of the rules motocross had always been measured by displacement.

Using equal displacement is the only “fair” way of judging which machine is best. Any other method must include a handicap for the lesser machine. In this particular case the four-stroke needs a handicap to compete.

How can you compare with a handicap? It’s impossible, because when you change the method of computing the handicap, the results change.

By wintrader on April 15th, 2010 at 2:57 am

What can i say. I think you are right. I just think i was not neccesary. 4 strokes make a relatively cheap sport expensive for nothing. For the rest difficult to say which bike is better of more honest. I think for motox 2 stroke is the way to go. For the rest i told you before it does not matter so much i think. More displacement does not always mean going round faster on a track. And i believe lots of marketing involved because i also do not believe every year bikes get better. Only facturers get better from this not the riders who think they will be faster on the latest bike. Here in europe we have special 2 shock class for 2 strokes like maico 490 and they are going very fast. Perhaps riders will be just a little faster on the latest bikes but i do not think much faster. http://www.dutchtwinshock.nl/english.html

You can decide , for instance, to allow pneumatic valves in 4 strokes and then they will be as fast or faster then 2 strokes with same displacement. But in what way do they deliver the power and will it be affordable for normal people. I guess not. So what is the use of all this? Or are we going to allow turbo’s on motox bikes. If the factories go on like this moto x will not be afforable for lots of people. Even with 2 stroke it cost a lot of money.

Will see what happens over time but as far as i can see lots of riders go back to 2 strokes.

By VintageBlueSmoke on April 15th, 2010 at 12:49 pm

JohnNicholas makes a good point about the unfair handicap applied to 2-strokes however, I disagree that it is the only way the 4-stroke can compete equally. What should be determined is what the end result the organizers want – be it fuel economy, emissions, etc. and then make a rule for that. If, for example, you set a low fuel amount limit, the 4-stoke would be still racing while the 2-stroke riders would be pushing it to the finish (with current technology). At least that would be a FAIR handicap.

Pneumatic valves and other F1 technology such will never produce an equivelent to a 2-stroke in performance, no matter how much money you throw at it*. What makes the 4-stroke superior, especially at larger displacements but also in MX and Enduro, is the application of usable power and survivability over a race distance (or 3 in F1’s case). That is not the necessarily case in Motocross.

*Except in the case of forced injection (i.e. Turbo or Supercharging)

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